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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

FloraFox · 19/01/2015 23:13

If there is no evidence proving that she was incapable of consent how can there not be reasonable doubt?

You should pay more attention. It appears your agenda is blocking your reading capabilities.

venusinscorpio · 19/01/2015 23:44

People who demand that women shout "No! No! No! Unhand me you cad!" at someone who is about to rape them, forget that women have to do a speedy sub-conscious risk assessment about how dangerous it would be to bring out into the open, that rape (a very serious crime carrying a maximum sentence of life imprisonment) is happening by saying No.

YY. Another point people are often incapable of getting their heads around. I had a long conversation while travelling last year with a guy (an MMA fighter) who was suggesting self-defence strategies for women. His advice was well-meaning, but he said you should always make a fuss and shout if you think there is something wrong. In vain did I try to explain why a woman might not think it wise to escalate a situation if there was no obvious source of help. He just couldn't grasp why not.

Fatbloke1 · 21/01/2015 12:07

"Instead of turning round and telling the stranger to fuck off, the man she is with stops having sex with her and greets the stranger in such a way that it's clear they are friends and that he's not surprised to see the stranger"

As far as I can see, nothing was said in the evidence presented to the trial, to say whether CM was surprised to see CE in the room or not. But there is good reason to explain why he might not have been.

In his evidence, CM said that as he was having sex with the complainant, he became aware of the sound of giggling outside the window. He got up to close the curtains and recognized CE's brother and the other guy they'd been out with that night. He would not have needed to be a brain surgeon to realize that CE must be around somewhere and when he turned round, he saw Evans there.

Fatbloke1 · 21/01/2015 14:02

"But there is evidence! Two lots of cctv, the testimony of the taxi driver, the testimony of the hotel porter, the fact that she wet herself in her sleep... It isn't just her saying "I can't remember, I must have been too drunk to consent" - there is lots of corroborating evidence as to her state that night."

Yes, there is evidence - but it is contradictory.

We are told the earlier cctv evidence, allegedly shows the complainant falling, stumbling and squatting in a shop doorway. But this, as far as I know, has not been made public, it is difficult for us to make a judgement on it. The evidence from the taxi driver and the hotel porter describes her speech as being slurred, that she had a blank look, disheveled clothing and that she was unsteady on her feet.

On the other hand

We have the complainant herself, saying that she hadn't felt that drunk and stating that she had drunk more on previous occasions, without blacking out. This was borne out by one of her friends, who said in her evidence, that the complainant didn't appear that drunk - just happy.

The complainant appears to have made her own way to the take away and if we are to believe CE's website, she managed to pay for her pizza with the correct change.

If we are to accept the Judge's description of the earlier cctv footage, then it was the complainant who approached CM and not the other way round.

She voluntarily got into the back seat of the taxi and, although the taxi driver described her as having slurred speech and disheveled clothing - it appears she understood and complied with his instruction that she had to sit in the front seat, because she was eating her pizza.

The cctv from the hotel clearly shows her getting out of the taxi unaided and walking into the hotel arm in arm with CM. The cctv and CM's testimony also stated that she was able to realize that she did not have her handbag with her before they walked in though the door.

The porter described her speech as being slurred, but again, if we are to believe CE's website, it was not so slurred, that he could not hear her say to CM "you're not going to leave me are you?", when she realized that the pizza had been left outside and went back to retrieve it.

The cctv footage then shows her walk back outside, completely unaided, squat down, pick up the pizza box with one hand, stand up and walk back into the hotel to re-join CM, without appearing to stumble; all allegedly in a pair of unfamiliar high heeled shoes, which she had supposedly borrowed for the evening, according to CE's website. This appears to contradict the porter's description of her being unsteady on her feet.

This later footage in my view, has greater validity than the earlier footage, because in the timeline, it occurred only moments before the alleged rape began!

Then according to the press reports of the porter's evidence, AFTER CE's arrival, the porter went to check the room. he did not enter the room, but said he could hear "squealing and panting" to the extent that he was in no doubt that people were having sex inside. He also said he heard a man ask the woman to perform oral sex on him. This of course begs two questions WHO was doing the squealing? and if this woman was unconscious, what would be the point of actually asking her to give you a blow job?

As to her wetting the bed - at what point in the at least 7 hours, between her arrival at the hotel, and her waking up with no memory of the previous events did she let go of her bladder?

Finally the complainant did not say she was too drunk to consent. She said that when she woke up at least 7 hour later, she had no memory of how she got into that hotel room or who she'd been with. She said she suspected that her drink had been "spiked". But then said she had not let her drink out of her sight. Furthermore, the prosecution offered no evidence that her drink had been spiked at all - let alone any evidence that either CM, CE or any of their associates had done the spiking.

HouseWhereNobodyLives · 21/01/2015 14:10

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HouseWhereNobodyLives · 21/01/2015 14:12

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YonicScrewdriver · 21/01/2015 14:19

The complainant's initial concern was that her drink had been spiked, given her memory loss. Tests were run and this was found to be unlikely, IIRC. I don't think it was ever asserted as part of the prosecution's case.

However, you are here with a Chedgenda, so va fa'Napoli.

Fatbloke1 · 21/01/2015 14:32

"You don't fucking need to make a judgement on it - the jury already did that!"

Of course they did. And I suppose you are going to tell us that no jury ever got it wrong, no judge ever misdirected a jury, nobody has ever been convicted, lost an appeal and still turned out to be innocent in the end?

"The only reason the other cctv is publicly available is because the CE campaign has published it online (possibly illegally - the issue is being considered by the CPS) because it paints the defence case in a positive light."

I refer you to the point I made above. The the complainant and CM arrived in that hotel room at around 4am and were having sex very shortly afterwards. The footage from the hotel is by far closer in the timeline to that event than the other footage which was recorded some time before. It is therefore a far more valid indicator as to her state of intoxication at the precise time the offences took place.

Perhaps it was released by the CE campaign, but are you going to claim that this cctv footage is somehow forged. If not, then now that it is in the public domain(however it got there), we cannot simply ignore it now can we?

Fatbloke1 · 21/01/2015 14:47

"All your info is from the CE website, which you have swallowed hook line and sinker."

That is quite simply wrong!

I took an interest in this case, because of all the screaming and bawling that has been going on and I wanted to see what all the fuss was about.

So I trawled all of the press reports I could find from the trial. I've read the transcript of the appeal decision. I've studied the Sexual Offences Act 2003 and the prominent test cases which set out the pre-history of the case(ie R v Dougal, R v Bree and R v Cooper). And yes, Iv'e studied the Ched Evans Website - why? Because those with an objective mindset, look at ALL the available sources and ALL sides of the story. If you go back and re-read what I said, you will notice that where I have mentioned the CE website, I have qualified those references with phrases such as "If we are to believe".

That in my view is a more objective way of looking at things, than automatically assuming that something is a pack of lies just because Ched Evans said it and then trying to brand anybody who disagrees with you as being "moronic"

It's far more grown up too!

HouseWhereNobodyLives · 21/01/2015 14:48

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HouseWhereNobodyLives · 21/01/2015 14:50

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ifyourehoppyandyouknowit · 21/01/2015 15:32

So a calm and measured response from feminists that they don't think an unrepentant convicted rapist has any place being a role model/being cheered by crowds, amounts to screaming and bawling?

PuffinsAreFictitious · 21/01/2015 15:49

Not sure I've screamed or bawled. Nor have any of the other people who believe that holding convicted and unrepentant rapists up as heroes is wrong.

One of CE's fans has named a woman on social media as being behind the Jean Hatchet account. He's also named her child. She has nothing to do with JH, but is now in hiding.

On the basis of that, I think it's completely sane to be very wary of people toddling along to tell us that we're wrong, when we know more about the case than they do.....

Fatbloke1 · 21/01/2015 15:57

"Yes we can. Because it's only a fraction of the evidence the jury saw and heard."

How very objective of you!

"As for the rest.."

Yes, go on.....

YonicScrewdriver · 21/01/2015 16:00

Really puffins?

What bellendious behaviour.

PuffinsAreFictitious · 21/01/2015 16:01

Yes Yonic. It's pretty scary to be honest.

HouseWhereNobodyLives · 21/01/2015 16:07

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ifyourehoppyandyouknowit · 21/01/2015 16:14

And yet we're the ones accused of 'screaming and bawling'.

Women speak out about male violence, and they get threatened with more male violence while being told they are over reacting. It would be funny if it weren't so horribly frightening.

cadno · 21/01/2015 16:46

Thanks for your post Fatbloke1 - interesting reading.

There have been many posts on this and other CE threads exhorting the need for people to carry out their own research on the case from court of appeal transcripts etc - when someone does spend the time and energy to report back - especially in a properly considered way - it goes down like a ham sandwich at a vegan knees-up.

HouseWhereNobodyLives · 21/01/2015 16:49

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cadno · 21/01/2015 17:04

I think what he's saying is that the CPS case was that the complainant was too drunk too consent.

I don't see where he states that she had her drink spiked - could you point it out - he may do, skimming fast through it a second time, I don't see it.

cadno · 21/01/2015 17:05

sorry 'to' not 'too'

AskBasil · 21/01/2015 17:07

" if we are to believe CE's website"

Not enough LOLs quite frankly

cadno · 21/01/2015 17:08

not a laughing matter - to be honest

AskBasil · 21/01/2015 17:13

It is for me cadno

The sight of men coming on here to explain to us why we lack objectivity unlike like them, to be congratulated on their objective interesting posts by another male poster when they're pompously wondering if the rapist's rape-myth promoting, victim-blaming vicious website is to be believed - well, laughable is only the beginning