"Women against feminism" WTF?!!

[Desperate2012]

Really. Just heard about this as a "thing". Honestly, like there aren't enough important issues out there some women feel their biggest battle is AGAINST feminism. Lets just shoot ourselves in the foot then. Gaaaah!!! Had to get that off my chest

I'd think they were telling the truth. Unless they were including women over 50.

I agree it's true, that's the point of the example. Aren't we supposed to be fighting against this generalisation of people based on their genitals? You're basically assenting to employers discriminating against women of child bearing age!

^Saying 'every muslim is a potential terrorist' isn't a good comparison though, is it?

Every person is a potential terrorist in reality. Saying ' every muslim' is like saying 'every bald man' (or some other subset of men) is a potential rapist.^

Saying 'every muslim' is racist because it implies that muslims are most likely to be terrorists (which, on a global & historical scale, isn't accurate) and ignores all the non-muslim terrorists.

It's true even if you say every Muslim. Whether or not it's racist (and I agree it is) isn't the point, the fact it's true apparently justifies it.

No, they don't - but simply having a penis does not make you a man, and having a safe space is not the same as being denied services simply because you have a residual penis. As a woman I'm concerned that all women have equal access to services.

Sorry to drop in to the middle of the conversation.

In my view, the phrase 'all men are potential rapists' is useful because of the way many women experience rape. It's not designed to make women look shiftily at all men they meet - the point is, lots of women are raped by men they know. It is a very natural and human response to try to rationalize this. So you get women (and sometimes their families and friends) saying 'well, Nigel is my husband and I love him, he couldn't do a thing like that ... I must have misunderstood'. Or 'he must have got carried away'. Or 'maybe you sent the wrong signals?'

The point of the phrase it to remind us all that there is nothing obviously evil or terrifying or 'marked out' about a man who is a rapist. We expect there to be. Often, people will talk about how rape is an evil act, and only someone awful could carry it out. The problem with that, is that it suggests rapists are all quite different from the men we meet every day, and we'd easily see the difference.

I've heard women beating themselves up for not realizing their rapist would do such a thing. Saying 'all men are potential rapists' reminds us we can't see inside other people's heads. We can't know if this nice-seeming man is a nice man, or if he's a rapist - and that is not our fault.

All men are potential rapists. Just as all human beings are potential murderers.

Agree Just - but the point I was making is none of the examples I used (and the examples others have given) is ever used - person, man, woman, Muslim, etc because it's utterly ridiculous, and yet someone with a penis can be called a 'potential rapist' simply because they have a penis. Whose agenda does that suit?

So because someone decides that they are a woman, they feel like a woman, but they want to keep their genitals as those of a man, I should be forced to share a women's changing room with them, let them give me a medical examination I would usually only be comfortable with a female Dr doing, share a prison cell with them, share a room in a hostel or shelter with them?

Giving transwomen the right to access the services they need is right, and fair and of course I support that. But that doesn't mean that they should be able to access services that women need to access in a purely female space.

LRD - I think that we can explain that without resorting to the 'all men are potential rapists' claim.

Saying 'every man' doesn't ignore all the non-male rapists, because there aren't any (this is going on the legal definition which states that rape involves a penis).

There are men who have no penis, through accident or disease. There are men incapable of an erection through medical condition. So in fact the comparison with 'all muslims are potential terrorists seems valid. In the way that a woman might cross the road to avoid a man, I might avoid flights likely to carry a lot of muslims. Just reducing the risk, as I cannot know their intentions. Even though I know that statistically most of them wouldn't blow the plane up.

Lastly, the definition of rape as penetration by a penis is true in the UK, but not in other countries - e.g. Germany. So rape by someone other than a male with a functioning penis is possible in some places.

Bugger - just seen the time. Am at work and getting nothing done . Heading off now

One more thing - muslim is not a racial definition. I can be white and a muslim. So accusing Islamic faith of being a cause of terrorism is not a racist statement.

SirC - maybe you can, but I can't. I think it's helpful.

And I'm not 'resorting to the claim'.

You may not find any of this helpful. That's fine. But some women do. And most men I know do not find it remotely offensive.

Anyway, tell me - how exactly would you reassure a traumatised woman who couldn't believe she'd been raped because the rapist was 'such a nice guy'? How could you explain to her she couldn't have known, when she's telling you she's sure all rapists are evil and it can't be her bloke because he seems nice?

I would start by telling her she is allowed to be bloody upset. I would not start by waving my finger in her face and insisting she moderate her language so as not to upset any men who might be saddened by the phrase 'all men are potential rapists'.

Guess that's a difference between us, eh?

LRD - Interesting point about not "othering" rapists as different to non-rapists. It's certainly the case that the rape-myth culture perpetuates this and anything that can bring that into sharp focus is a Good Thing.

My first reaction to the All-men-are-rapists thing, was that it was a precursor or postcursor (is that a word?) to the All-PIV-is-rape concept. So more feminist theory, rather than applied feminism. Can't see why it can't be used in both tho'.

Thanks.

I'm not great at theory. I just think it has a practical use, that phrase.

just - after the tube bombings, I definitely felt my heart beat faster when I was on the tube with someone who fit that demographic. I'm not proud of it, but I'm not going to lie and pretend I didn't worry about it. I also worry every time I fly that the plane is going to crash - I know statistically it's unlikely, but I do get afraid.

The difference (it seems to me) is that while terrorist attacks by Muslim extremists in the UK are rare, rape isn't.

Oh, I see.

Sure, but that's an irrational response really. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with it, but the men who're most likely to rape us are men who aren't strangers.

SirChenjin - I'd be interested to know what more you think there is to "being female" than a person's biology?

Certainly, there is a lot more to being "me, Sollers" than my biology, but all my experiences of "being female" are directed related to the fact that I have female biology. I honestly can't think of any "female" aspects of my life that are not.

I have nothing against transwomen, and will always respect their choice of lifestyle* but I don't believe that they are actually female. Male/female for me is a biological assignation, not a chosen identity.

*(tbh, I'm not even bothered about them sharing female-only spaces, but then again I'm lucky enough to have never be seriously assaulted by a male; I might feel differently if that were the case.)

I'm so sorry. I hope I didn't come across as insensitive.

I agree with you women will be on the alert. I'm not sure, for me, that's what justifies 'all men are potential rapists' as a useful feminist phrase, but I am probably not explaining very well, and it's not important.

You have made the point about strangers again, bullets. Many people here have pointed out that women who are assaulted are far more likely to be assaulted by people they know, in domestic situations. So you need to be more on your guard at home, or in a home containing a male who may be your husband, son, relative or acquaintance.