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Original poster

Right you pesky feminists, which sort of rape is *worse* <Dawkins related>

216 replies

ladyblablah · 29/07/2014 19:55

So Dawkins (self proclaimed ironic prophet) has decided that date rape is not as bad as a rape with a knife at your throat.

I have a question - what if the date rape includes a knife at the throat - what then - who wins at being the worst?

Is there a rule that date rape doesn't include knives? Do us feminists not know this rule for rapists?

OP posts:
ABlandAndDeadlyCourtesy · 30/07/2014 19:53

", surely you're more likely to want the one witness to your crime out of the way?"

It's a lot harder to get away with murder than get away with rape. Whatever you think of anyone's morality, surely it's obvious that disposing of a dead body, especially when 85% or more of rapes are committed by a friend, acquaintance or family member, is a pretty big deal to get away with.

Theherbofdeath · 30/07/2014 19:54

No, Seven, I said that the number of rape victims who are murdered would go up, not that every rape victim would be murdered.
I also suspect that if a mandatory life sentence were brought in, there would be huge publicity about that, so that men would become more aware of the definition of rape and the possible consequences to them.
What would help far more than bringing in a mandatory life sentence, which would also be very unjust in some cases and very expensive, would be making reforms to ensure a far higher rate of reports, charges and convictions. At the moment men know that they are very likely to get away with it. Women know that too, and some therefore don't report.

SevenZarkSeven · 30/07/2014 19:54

The other thing is Cooroo that some women who went through what you went through would be tremendously traumatised.

I just don't think it's that useful to compare experiences in this way.

You suggest that we take your reaction as the "standard" for that situation. Why not a woman who was much more traumatised? Are women supposed to brush these things off and they are lacking if they don't? A person's history, upbringing, personality, loads of things come into play, there is no "right" or "wrong" in how a victim reacts. Is it "wrong" if a person who has a "worse" rape is able to brush it off? Does that reaction mean that actually that type of rape isn't so bad either?

And as I mentioned, the law accounts for circumstances surrounding a rape in terms of aggravating factors.

Cooroo · 30/07/2014 19:55

But many people seem to be denying such a difference exists. I think all rape is wrong however it occurs and men should be told this from an early age. But there are differences.

SevenZarkSeven · 30/07/2014 19:56

In what cases in our existing legal system would it be "hugely unjust" for a man found guilty of rape to be given life imprisonment, theherbofdeath?

SevenZarkSeven · 30/07/2014 19:56

Cooroo read the thread.

SevenZarkSeven · 30/07/2014 19:57

Oh look even more:

"At the moment men know that they are very likely to get away with it. Women know that too, and some therefore don't report."

Some. SOME.

Yes your posts are very very telling.

Theherbofdeath · 30/07/2014 19:58

Sevem - you could read what Cooroo has written. She is the victim of that crime. She doesn't come across as thinking that the just outcome would have been that young man spending his entire life in prison.

SevenZarkSeven · 30/07/2014 19:59

I have read what she's written.

And responded accordingly.

Theherbofdeath · 30/07/2014 20:01

Seven - you've lost me now - what's so terrible about saying that some women don't report rape? Should I have said that many women don't report rape? Why don't you just give us the figures, if you know them and we don't?

NB what would you rather have happen to you - the rape that Cooroo describes, or being murdered? You seriously believe that they deserve the same punishment?

SevenZarkSeven · 30/07/2014 20:01

You just don't think rape is really that bad do you, theherb.

You are in the happy position of having most of society, the police and the legal system sharing your views.

Theherbofdeath · 30/07/2014 20:05

I think that there are degress of badness. Some rapists I would happily see get life imprisonment. But not all. I suspect that you will also start to see degress of badness if your son ever commits the kind of crime that Cooroo has described.

SevenZarkSeven · 30/07/2014 20:05

What is so terrible about it is that most women don't report rape. You have stated that some women don't, thus underplaying the problem.

Your posts throughout this thread have been really off, frankly, and now you are asking me to sit here in my home imagining being raped and/or murdered?

Really nice.

Namechangearoonie123 · 30/07/2014 20:06

He is not remotely 'logical'

Being an arsehole does not explain his 'logic'

He should have died out with the Dodo's given his logic.

SevenZarkSeven · 30/07/2014 20:08

You seem to see an inevitability that men go around raping people. That it is entirely likely that any given son will rape someone in his life.

Again with the really grim view of men.

Not all men are rapists, you know. The men who think like that, well I think we all know why. They assume that all other men think as they do. But they don't. Loads of men wouldn't dream of fucking a woman who they know is not consenting. Thank god they aren't all like some paint them to be.

Theherbofdeath · 30/07/2014 20:09

You're just being silly now, Seven. If you're proposing bringing in life imprisonment for a crime, you have to be prepared to contemplate such a crime.

Signing off now as on computer way too long.

SevenZarkSeven · 30/07/2014 20:14

I'm not proposing it, that was another poster.

Who was reacting to you being aghast at the very idea.

caroldecker · 30/07/2014 21:00

My view on what he was saying, and Twitter is not the right medium for it as it does not give you enough space, is:

We currently give convicted rapists different sentences, based on the circumstances of the offence.
As a society we therefore have different 'levels' of rape
Why that is and whether it is right is up for discussion, but we should be able to have that discussion
If we do not have this discussion, then actually the descision on what the levels are are made by middle aged middle class male judges and not from the better knowledge of women and victims.

ABlandAndDeadlyCourtesy · 30/07/2014 21:12

Lots of crimes have different sentences based on aggravating factors. Theft is still theft if your nanny steals your purse or an opportunist grabs it through an open window, but being in a position of trust is, I think, an aggravating factor when it comes to sentencing those two crimes.

ABlandAndDeadlyCourtesy · 30/07/2014 21:12

One isn't "mild theft" though!

SevenZarkSeven · 30/07/2014 21:15

It's mixing up the circumstances with the rape itself though.

The law on rape in the UK is very very clear and I would not wish to see it changed.
Similarly the guidelines around aggravating factors are very clear and are all taken into account (or supposed to be). I would not wish to see this changed.

What is the discussion. Is he arguing for a change in the law? I don't think so as he doesn't seem to know what the law says. Is he arguing that "date" rape is not "real" rape and is not "bad" rape - yes I think so.

I am not sure what the purpose of his comments is. I know that the effect of them will be to reinforce the idea in society at large that "date rape" isn't something that should be taken too seriously, and given that is what society thinks already, I fail to see what he's up to with this. There's nothing controversial in what he says, it is a position he shares with the majority of the public including law enforcement, judiciary etc etc.

The only people who will find his remarks controversial are a minority group comprising rape victims, feminists, and others who are that way inclined. Everyone else will say no shit sherlock of course he's right and merrily carry on as they are.

caroldecker · 30/07/2014 21:17

abland Not sure he used the phrase 'mild rape'.

Exactly the point he is making. In the theft case, we can quite happily have a discussion on the aggravating factors, on the various sentences and how we should deal with criminals, but for rape, that discussion is shut down by noise and aggression, which we ought to be able to discuss in the same way.

ABlandAndDeadlyCourtesy · 30/07/2014 21:24

Is it shut down by noise and aggression? Really?

Rape is rape and it has a sentencing guideline.

Additionally to that there are sometimes aggravating factors.

The rape itself is not more bad or less bad because of the aggravating factors; the aggravating factors may lead to further impact on the victim, just as being held at knife point without being raped would be a traumatic experience too.

SevenZarkSeven · 30/07/2014 21:24

He said

"date rape" and "mild paedophilia".

People are more than happy to discuss the aggravating factors of rape. There have been many discussions on here when cases have been in the news.

The law as it stands is fine. The implementation of it needs work but the law itself is good. What is it that you think he wants to discuss? Why do you think he wants to discuss it? What direction is he trying to take the conversation in by using words like "mild" and the horribly minimising term "date rape".

SevenZarkSeven · 30/07/2014 21:26

Basically he hasn't got a clue about the issues surrounding all of this, or the law, and yet he has waded in anyway, and when lots of people (unsurprisingly) round on him he calls them thick.