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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Right you pesky feminists, which sort of rape is *worse* <Dawkins related>

216 replies

ladyblablah · 29/07/2014 19:55

So Dawkins (self proclaimed ironic prophet) has decided that date rape is not as bad as a rape with a knife at your throat.

I have a question - what if the date rape includes a knife at the throat - what then - who wins at being the worst?

Is there a rule that date rape doesn't include knives? Do us feminists not know this rule for rapists?

OP posts:
MontyGlee · 30/07/2014 14:15

Quite, KIH; being a selfish scummy arsehole isn't necessarily illegal. Being cheated on can be utterly devastating and violating, but there's no law against it (perhaps there should be?) A man not caring if a woman is enjoying sex doesn't seem a guarantee that he's consciously and deliberately overriding consent. Isn't that a fundamental principle? Mens rea? Is this not a red herring in the stranger vs known issue? The stranger jumping out of the bushes will always have a guilty mind and so too might the husband, date, friend etc etc... But there is, for me, also the possibility of the might. There is a possibility that there wasn't consent, but there also wasn't mens rea - just selfish twattery.

I'm sort of thinking aloud here. Apologies to anyone offended by it.

Keepithidden · 30/07/2014 14:18

Sorry folks, I'm no lawyer and I'm not au fait with much in the way of criminal law full stop, so I'm reluctant to make judgements on the current legislation.

My comments can be taken at a personal level for me only, and I'm conscious I breach them too. It's not something I'm happy about.

ABigKidDidItAndRanAway · 30/07/2014 14:44

I'm already scared when I walk at night. I'm already pretty sure that I could be sexually assaulted by a stranger (because I have been socialized in to that fear).

But what if after a decade my husband the man I love and have had children with and shared my whole adult life raped me?

Ah well, that wouldn't be too bad would it? Right?

Dawkins is a total and utter cunt. He really fucking is.

ifyourehoppyandyouknowit · 30/07/2014 14:57

I can see the headline now:

Dawkins in Saying Something Stupid, Wrong and Offensive SHOCKER!

cadno · 30/07/2014 15:30

Get a grip

cailindana · 30/07/2014 15:57

Monty, I think the issue with what you're talking about is not that the men didn't intend to rape but that they didn't consider what they did to be rape. That doesn't mean that it's not rape and that they're not guilty. You don't have to know what you're doing is a crime in order to be a criminal.
If someone puts his penis in you without your consent it is rape, regardless of whether he would call himself a rapist or not.

I always say this on rape threads and I'll say it again. Sex is an entirely optional activity that no person should ever feel obligated to engage in. If you feel obligated then there is something seriously wrong. It should be voluntary and at least purposeful (ie to have a baby) and ideally enjoyable. It should not ever ever ever be something you feel pushed into or required to participate in.

If a man genuinely can't tell whether a woman wants sex or not then there's something wrong with him and he shouldn't really be around people as he's a danger.

heavenhelpus · 30/07/2014 16:04

Well what we really need is a clever man to let lots of other men know that if you rape a woman who you already know it really isn't so bad.

Thanks for that Dawkins, you utter prick, thanks a lot.

cailindana · 30/07/2014 16:05

It does take a staggering amount of arrogance to think you can judge how "bad" a subjective experience is for another person.

SarahThane · 30/07/2014 16:09

Rape is rape. That's all there is to it and I can't understand the problem. If Richard Dawkins had this happen to him I think he'd have understood.

Tortoiseturtle · 30/07/2014 16:10

I don't really understand all this. Which do you think is worse for the woman:

  1. She has foreplay with her long term boyfriend. This develops into having intercourse, which she enjoys. Part way through, she realises that she has been forgetting to take the pill. She tells the boyfriend she has changed her mind and he should withdraw. He continues to orgasm before withdrawing.
  2. The next door neighbour comes round to borrow something. Finding her alone, he ties her up and rapes her, so forcefully that he causes her internal injuries.

Should these attract the same punishment?

And paedophilia? How can that not include more and less serious paedophilia? There's a massive range.

ifyourehoppyandyouknowit · 30/07/2014 16:20

Sarah arrogance is luckily something Prof D has in spades.

JustTheRightBullets · 30/07/2014 16:23

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JustTheRightBullets · 30/07/2014 16:24

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LonnyVonnyWilsonFrickett · 30/07/2014 16:48

Tortoise but in terms of the law, what's 'worse' for the woman doesn't come into it. It is about the giving of consent, as simple as that. It's a yes/no - there is no maybe.

This is important, because women will react to rape in different ways. So say scenario 2 happens to two women. 1 of them is utterly destroyed psychologically, never leaves the house, etc etc. Woman 2 manages to deal with it in a different way and to all intents and purposes can pick her life back up, on the surface at least.

So should these two acts attract the same punishment?

JustTheRightBullets · 30/07/2014 16:51

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Dervel · 30/07/2014 16:53

I actually am beginning to hate the way logic is used, it proves precisely fuck and all in roughly that order. It's merely a useful tool to formalise thought and express an idea.

The redundancy of his entire witterings lies in the fact that different misfortunes hit different people in different ways. To stay away from rape for a second, say two people are violently mugged, while one person struggles and deals with with little or no visible outward signs, the second goes on to develop severe agrophobia and social anxiety.

Neither victim is at fault, but trying to categorize objectively what will always be subjective reactions to the same stimuli is a fools errand, because people are different. I don't even take his scientist approach to this seriously as there ARE scientists who masters in their field just as much as he is in his. Now when the ill educated attempt to encroach on his turf in the creationist vs evolutionists he gets all uppity, but apparently he is allowed to pass comment on all manner of subjects no matter his ignorance.

dashoflime · 30/07/2014 16:55

I think he was sexually abused as a child and this whole discourse stems from an attempt on his part to minimise that (possibly for understandable reasons)
Its not logical though- and its not philosophy.
Sad for little Dawkins

cailindana · 30/07/2014 17:05

Tortoise, his comment wasn't about punishment, it was about which was "worse." He didn't define what "worse" meant, though one could imagine he meant in terms of the effect for the victim. Who is he to say what's worse? Who is any of us to judge the devastation that the victim "should" feel?

In terms of the law, rape covers the putting of a penis into an orifice without consent. The circumstances around that are separate but are also taken into account. They have no bearing on the rape though.

Theherbofdeath · 30/07/2014 17:34

I admit I don't know much about the law on this, but I find a man who is in a loving sexual relationship with the woman and gets "carried away in the heat of the moment" - I know, I know - while already having or on the verge of having sex, more defensible than someone who attacks a woman he is not in a sexual relationship with. I think that the latter is worse and should be punished a lot more harshly. So I understand men who differentiate between these kinds of offences. I would not say that these are exactly the same offence but that offence 2 also includes common assault or whatever so he will be charged for common assault too. That would result in the 2 offences receiving virtually the same punishment, which would be unjust.

JustTheRightBullets · 30/07/2014 17:49

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TeWiSavesTheDay · 30/07/2014 18:09

I don't think Dawkins is particularly good at logic.

If he genuinely based all his beliefs on pure logic he'd be agnostic.

Which is a shame because lots of people will read this and cement the idea that there are levels of rape and some are 'mild'.

ErrolTheDragon · 30/07/2014 18:17

Oh dear. I don't believe there should be issues which are taboo and cannot be discussed philosophically (even by men) but I am pretty darned sure that if you're going to do it, you should not use Twitter.

richarddawkins.net/2014/07/are-there-emotional-no-go-areas-where-logic-dare-not-show-its-face/

I doubt many people CBA to read all that though.

ABlandAndDeadlyCourtesy · 30/07/2014 18:20

"carried away in the heat of the moment"

If his mother walked into the room, do you think he'd be able to stop? Mid thrust if necessary?

There is no such thing as being so carried away that the absence or withdrawal of consent can be overridden.

Theherbofdeath · 30/07/2014 18:33

I just don't think that you will be able to get men to believe that not stopping mid-thrust when told to do so by your girlfriend is as bad as going out, stalking a victim, dragging her into the bushes at knife-point, tearing off her clothing and raping her with such force that she suffers internal injury. Good luck with that one.

PetulaGordino · 30/07/2014 18:36

i've read it through errol. here is where he explains why he chose rape and paedophilia analogies:

"Yes, I could have used the broken nose example. I accept that I must explain why I chose to use the particular example of rape. I was emphatically not trying to hurt rape victims or trivialise their awful experience. They get enough of that already from the “She was wearing a short skirt, I bet she was really begging for it Hur Hur Hur” brigade. So why did I choose rape as my unpleasant hypothetical (in both directions) rather than the “breaking someone’s nose” example? Here’s why.

I hope I have said enough above to justify my belief that rationalists like us should be free to follow moral philosophic questions without emotion swooping in to cut off all discussion, however hypothetical. I’ve listed cannibalism, trapped miners, transplant donors, aborted poets, circumcision, Israel and Palestine, all examples of no-go zones, taboo areas where reason may fear to tread because emotion is king. Broken noses are not in that taboo zone. Rape is. So is pedophilia. They should not be, in my opinion. Nor should anything else.

I didn’t know quite how deeply those two sensitive issues had infiltrated the taboo zone. I know now, with a vengeance. I really do care passionately about reason and logic. I think dispassionate logic and reason should not be banned from entering into discussion of cannibalism or trapped miners. And I was distressed to see that rape and pedophilia were also becoming taboo zones; no-go areas, off limits to reason and logic.

“Rape is rape is rape.” You cannot discuss whether one kind of rape (say by a ‘friend”) is worse than another kind of rape (say by a stranger). Rape is rape and you are not allowed even to contemplate the question of whether some rape is bad but other rape is worse. I don’t want to listen to this horrible discussion. The very idea of classifying some rapes as worse than others, whether it’s date rape or stranger rape, is unconscionable, unbearable, intolerable, beyond the pale, taboo. There is no allowable distinction between one kind of rape and another.

If that were really right, judges shouldn’t be allowed to impose harsher sentences for some rapes than for others. Do we really want our courts to impose a single mandatory sentence – a life sentence, perhaps – for all rapes regardless? To all rapes, from getting a woman drunk and taking advantage at one end of the spectrum, to holding a knife to her throat in a dark alley at the other? Do we really want our judges to ignore such distinctions when they pass sentence? I don’t, and I don’t think any reasonable person would if they thought it through. And yet that would seem to be the message of the agonisingly passionate tweets that I have been reading. The message seems to be, no, there is no spectrum, you are wicked, evil, a monster, to even ask whether there might be a spectrum.

I don’t think rationalists and sceptics should have taboo zones into which our reason, our logic, must not trespass. Hypothetical cannibalism of human road kills should be up for discussion (and rejection in my opinion – but let’s discuss it). Same for eugenics. Same for circumcision and FGM. And the question of whether there is a spectrum of rapes, from bad to worse to very very much worse, should also be up for discussion, no less than the spectrum from a slap in the face to a broken nose.

There would have been no point in my using the broken nose example to illustrate my logic, because nobody would ever accuse us of endorsing face-slapping when we say, “Broken nose is worse than slap in face”. The point is trivially obvious, as it is with the symbolic case of “X is worse than Y”. But I knew that not everybody would think it obvious in the special cases of rape and pedophilia, and that was precisely why I raised them for discussion. I didn’t care whether we chose to say date rape was worse than dark alley stranger rape, or vice versa. Nor was I unaware that it is a sensitive issue, as is pedophilia. I deliberately wanted to challenge the taboo against rational discussion of sensitive issues.

That, then, is why I chose rape and pedophilia for my hypothetical examples. I think rationalists should be free to discuss spectrums of nastiness, even if only to reject them. I had noticed indications that rape and pedophilia had moved out of the discussion zone into a no-go taboo area. I wanted to challenge the taboo, just as I want to challenge all taboos against free discussion.

Nothing should be off limits to discussion. No, let me amend that. If you think some things should be off limits, let’s sit down together and discuss that proposition itself. Let’s not just insult each other and cut off all discussion because we rationalists have somehow wandered into a land where emotion is king."