"Activism is like Nirvana" apparently.

[MontyGlee]

The gist being... Moral superiority is like being a Nirvana fan; once everyone has caught on, the early adopters need to find a new band.

Well, this doesn´t really challenge the idea of legitimacy, nor acknowledge that early adopters are a shallow and vain minority. However, someone on here did claim that no progress had been made against the patriarchy, which had merely found new and more subtle ways of controlling women. Interestingly, this phrase crops up here almost exactly.

www.iea.org.uk/blog/the-economics-of-political-correctness

that's rather a snidey little article isn't it

comments re positionality and moral superiority are fine, but nice little anti-feminist jibes there

also not clear who the "pc brigade" are (other than feminists)

i think that lots of progress has been made, given the difference between the life i can lead compared to that of women in the past

but i would agree that the patriarchy has found new and possibly more sutble ways to control women (and still uses plenty of not-so-new ways), and has abused some of the tenets of earlier feminist movements to control women today

It's another example to prove the general principle that anyone who uses the phrase "PC brigade" (or variant thereof) will inevitably show themselves to be a complete bellend somewhere in the succeeding three sentences or so.

i did laugh at "pc brigadiers"

Bollocks.

There may be some people who pretend to care about being politically correct for such reasons. But most people try to discourage offensive words or ideas because, well, because they are offensive.

And if they manage to reach a point where there is a consensus that saying or thinking X is not acceptable, they can stop focussing on that specific injustice and move on to raising awareness of another one.

I've never heard anyone complain that society has 'sold out' because certain things are now mainstream. 'PCness' is not about being alternative and edgy, it's about hoping you can persuade the rest of society that being PC is not alternative and edgy, but actually a perfectly normal and achievable state for everybody.

I don;t know anyone who gives any impression of thinking otherwise.

I'm kind of with you on that point Buffy; the clear benefit of PC (if we must call it that) is to guard against the dehumanisation of vulnerable people and it's perfectly valid on that pretext. However, my only slight caveat is to add that that in itself doesn't preclude other arguments, such as - perhaps - this one. Can both not be true? I'm unconvinced by the absolutist argument that things are not just right and justified 'on balance' but exclusively, as if morality were a science. The author's use of the term PC Brigade doesn't actually discredit his argument, just himself.

Additionally, I think there is some truth in modern liberalism becoming the status quo. Consider this:

‘I find myself perhaps belatedly realising, I am a man of strong establishment views. I am broadly Europhile and certainly unionist. That’s only half of it, though. I am also politically correct, feminist, environmentalist and avowedly multiculturalist. It’s a bit of a shock to realise these are all now establishment views; they certainly never used to be.’

When I was young many of these schools of thought were radical and there was an attraction to that. Where's the attraction in being part of the general consensus?

I agree with all of that Buffy. Except that BTL is the establishment position. BTL is the murky world of real people and their real thoughts given free reign. It's hideous, ugly and irrational... but also honest. The establishment view is anodyne and undoubtedly feminist.

"The establishment view is anodyne and undoubtedly feminist."

I disagree. "Calm down, dear." from the most establishment figure of them all, David Cameron? The lack of women presenters and panellists on BBC shows? The Nadine Dorries position on abortion?

"Where's the attraction in being part of the general consensus?"

Depends if one is "being liberal" so one looks good, or "being liberal" because one believes those views are right and fair.

A day of rain in August doesn't stop it being summer.

Ok dokey Monty. Enjoy your evening,

True. And equally, to disprove it, one needs to do more than offer a few weak exceptions.

It's a shame that SigmundF doesn't post any more, Monty. I think you'd've got on with her quite well.

Apologies Buffy, I didn't mean to sound arsey; I just thought Bland's disagreement was backed up with some attempts at 'disproving' my point, but in fact only serve to strengthen the idea. It's suggested that DC saying 'calm down dear' is an example of the mask slipping, the eatablishment's anti-feminist ways being accidentally exposed. I think this is, in fact, a rather perverse and paranoid interpretati

perverse and paranoid interpretation. The reality is that it shows that a clumsy and accidental step outside the liberal orthodoxy and the crucial part is not what he said, but how the establishment reacted. There was an immediate outcry, he was roundly condemned and he consequently apologised. Same same BBC panel shows: large numbers of people up and down the country couldn't give a monkeys on the issue, but there's the bbc wringing its hands and considering quotas. The issue is raised in parliament, the media full column inches with talk of institutionalised sexism etc etc. feminism is not anti-establishment. The establishment follows a liberal doctrine in which women's rights are high on the agenda.

That's not to say that the establishment is fully equal. Of course it isn't! But this is the hypocrisy of the ruling elite; they may now profess to be equal opportunity, but in fact remain closed ranks. The establishment is black, white and Asian, male and female, straight and gay. However, it is also predominantly Oxbridge lawyers living between Richmond and Highgate.

I suspect that would always be a moot point; how does one tell? But is that not generally in line with the thrust of the article's argument? Equality is the fashion of the day - just so long as one doesn't have to sacrifice one's own position for it. All these people may bemoan the widening gap between rich and poor whilst simultaneously building property portfolios.

Something I think is interesting, though, is how we haven't yet caught up with who this new establishment is. If you watch the Channel 4 News argument between Rod Liddle and Yasmin Alhibai-Brown, you might think that it was Rod Liddle that was the face of the establishment. This is actually no longer true. It's YAB (and the interviewer).