New campaign to allow partners to stay on maternity wards.

[MrsCakesPremonition]

MN have started a thread about possibly supporting a new campaign to allow partners to stay overnight on maternity wards.
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/mumsnet_campaigns/a2129215-What-do-you-think-about-spouses-partners-staying-overnight-on-postnatal-wards?msgid=48200610#48200610

I feel very uncomfortable about this for lots of practical reasons, but also partly because it feels like another safe space for women being sacrificed for the convenience of men. However, I'm aware that I may be underplaying women's right to have whatever support they want.
Is this a feminist issue and how are the rights of one group of women (to feel safe) balanced against another group of women (to have the support they want)?

Quangle has nailed it.

The feminist dimension is that just because someone has a female body and has just given birth, that doesn't mean they are entitled to less privacy than any other patient.

Yes and those who say it will break down gender roles are missing the point. If a father is already hands on and supportive, he would be whether the first time he does a nappy is 12 hrs or 24 hrs... if he's an entitled arse, he will be at hospital or at home... there will be no 'epiphany' moments.
Additionally, birth and breast feeding are done by the female body: feminism isn't about 'playing down' our health so menz don't feel different (admittedly, it has been misunderstood in the past by some people/the media as this... but no one sensible believes to be a feminist you should 'act like a man' by looking like one and denying your natural bodily functions anymore). We don't think it anti-feminist to require privacy to change a Tampax, Always or Mooncup ... having privacy at a time when we've gone through a female physical process x1000 as intense should be respected.
I suppose if there was a male physical process involving extended discomfort and risk to his penis and anus, and it happened to most men if they wanted something as 'normal' as a family, there would be an equivalent... but there isn't nature hasn't made it an 'equal' scenario so the needs of the genders are different. I once heard the phrase "the one way to ensure inequality is to treat everyone rigidly the same" and I guess this is one of those scenarios where this applies in buckets.

The sort of dickhead who thinks that his experience of birth is an issue, and who doesn't acknowledge the serious nature of what the woman is doing.

There was a thread about this on MN a few months ago. It was quite - even more shocking a tiny handful (amongst most saying 'don't be crazy man') women saying "don't give it the 'she's pushing it out' thing, it's his big day toooooo!".
Like it was a spat over what colour flowers at a wedding not something which, even if not medicalised, needs close consideration of health, safety, pain management and psychological care.

if violence is your boundary, it's not high enough

Well said

Ooh was that that idiot thread where the bloke wanted his Simba moment where he could take the baby and throw it up in the air while his mother paraded around him wiping his arse while the mother of said baby was left starving in a cave?

(Sabrina be my guest)

I'm pretty sure that was the exact scenario.

AskBasil Yes! Your description was pretty close though: just private hospital instead of cave. ;)

Was talking to DP about this last night-

He made the point that men are on the wards anyway from about 9am to 9pm so examinations etc are generally carried put while they are there.

Also he told me he had to advocate fir me after DD1 was born -36hrs labour emcs- as I was sitting trying to feed her and kept falling asleep nearly dropping her. It was only when midwives decided he needed to go home that they tucked her into bed with me.

He sat in the car and cried before driving home - he isn't exactly a 'new man' either

But he thinks that allowing partners over night could be expected to 'fill the gaps' in care fir women and this may result in poorer care fir babies, with partners making decisions about newborn care without guidance from HCP.

I feel that those overnight experiences alone, awake alone in the wee hours, were the start of being a 'mother' it's when I learned the buck stopped with me.

I completely disagree with man being allowed to stay overnight on the wards for all the reasons already articulated so well by others, and just wanted to add a couple more that occurred to me. Not feminist issues, just thoughts from my own experience. After the birth of both my DC my husband was also exhausted - especially after number one who took days to arrive and ended up with a lot of emergency interventions. He had spent almost 3 days in a chair beside me with little sleep. Obviously I was in an even worse state and I needed him to support me. In order to do so he needed rest - a couple of nights at home in his own bed. If he had spent the remainder of my admission in a chair by my bed he would have been beyond exhausted and much less able to help and look after me and DC when we got home. Similarly, when he left each night and the lights went off and the ward went quiet I got the sleep I so badly needed. If he had been there I'm sure we would have chatted and whispered all night, disturbing my sleep and the others in the ward.
I just think there is SO much more to lose than gain from the introduction of a policy like this one.

I clicked on this thread thinking on all my time on mumsnet I actually agree with a thread on the feminist board. But sadly no. Those pesky men wouldn't be supporting their partners at all, of course not they would be peeping through the curtains trying to at ogle at another woman's breasts.

It's very little to do with boobs and everything to do with personal space and peaceful uninhibited recovery from birth without strangers constantly on the ward 24/7

'Also he told me he had to advocate fir me after DD1 was born -36hrs labour emcs- as I was sitting trying to feed her and kept falling asleep nearly dropping her.'

And this is the problem. Many women have come on and said similar. Their DH had to advocate with HCPs to get something for the woman. I understand that these men love their partners and want the best for that individual woman, but how is that helpful to everyone else on a maternity ward?

It effectively means that HCPs, people trained to judge how they should divide up their time and which woman they should be allocating the most help to are instead going to have their time used up by various men mansplaining the HCPs job to her and why their partner needs the HCP the most, while presumably the women without a man there just have to get on with it.

I have seen men behaving badly on maternity wards. I've also seen patients behaving badly on maternity wards, demanding XYZ from the HCP when they weren't in any great need and another patient was. And that is true on every ward for every medical condition; it isn't something peculiar to birth, women or mothers.

There are many posters on here who have had terrible experiences and should have had more help, but the solution to that is not to have a partner come in and act as an 'advocate' or 'union rep'!!!

The solution is to support better maternity services, more midwives and assistants for all mothers not somehow try and get better support for individual women who have a partner skilled at diverting stretched maternity services towards one patient.

The solution is to support better maternity services, more midwives and assistants for all mothers not somehow try and get better support for individual women who have a partner skilled at diverting stretched maternity services towards one patient.

Excellent point, well made almondcakes

mansplaining the HCPs job to her and why their partner needs the HCP the most, while presumably the women without a man there just have to get on with it.

Bullshit.

Actually they came and found him repeatedly waking me while I was trying to feed baby - I had been sat in a chair- as I was falling asleep holding DD1, she was falling out if my arms.

They asked him why he was still here, he said he was stopping me from dropping the baby, they dismissed this, but looked at me ( high temp, no sleep fur 36 hours, major abdo surgery) and got me into bed.

This isn't 'mansplaining' this is trying to deal with the poor postnatal care on wards. Many women will advocate fur a loved one on elderly care or children's wards - is that 'womansplaining' ?

I'd also say from a feminist point if view that the fear of 'mansplaining' and 'men in women's spaces seems to trump the many experiences of women who felt helpless and exhausted and wanted the company of their partner, on those first nights.

HCPs are trained to deal with pushy relatives - well I was - cases are dealt with according to patient need although relatives concerns should be taken into account

Is there a fundamental difference between a PN ward and a female gynae ward? Apart from the age demographic and the absence of babies.
Should women on a female gynae ward have the right to be cared for by their partners?

Hmmmm. As a father myself I say fathers should be allowed in single units only, and then only in exceptional circumstances where it is judged by medical staff as being recommended for the welfare of that particular family unit. For example: If a baby is premature or health compromised you sure as hell better pony up a place to sleep for dad. But, ultimately, a mother and child are patients, a father is not, fathers deserve exceptional visitation rights above that of regular family visitors, not the right to a bed in the ward itself.

BogQueen, I'm responding to your use of the word 'advocate' to describe what your DH did. I'm not making any kind of judgement about the quality of your care or what you needed, because I wasn't there and am not you.

Yours is just one of many similar posts using words like 'advocate' or 'union rep' to describe what the DH did or should do.

I have been in the position of having to 'advocate' for a family member on a different kind of ward, and it is an impossible dilemma because you want the best care for the person and are afraid to leave them, but you cannot take into account what the needs of the rest of the ward are because you don't know what their situation is. I definitely do not think family advocacy helps, despite knowing what a horrible situation it is to be in.

Womansplaining would be if women took it open themselves to explain why they should be allowed on to a ward full of men with prostate cancer and explained to male HCPs why they knew better what the HCP should be doing, and all of this would take place in a universe where women held most cultural, political, economic and social power and were responsible for over 90% of all criminal acts of violence.

'fathers deserve exceptional visitation rights above that of regular family visitors.'

No they don't. They don't deserve anything at all in the situation of a maternity ward.

It is up to the individual patient to decide who they most need with them within the context of the ward regulations. Many patients will think that person is the father. Many will not.

Almond, I think DadWas referred to the fact that most maternity wards have birth partner visiting hours 8-8 (for example) and "standard" hours for everyone else.

I'm ok with that though I do think the option for it to be one other nominated person would be good (eg if DH is working or looking after kids or just isn't the right person for the mother)

"Those pesky men wouldn't be supporting their partners at all, of course not they would be peeping through the curtains trying to at ogle at another woman's breasts."

No one on either thread has talked about ogling breasts.

And if we extend the right to be cared for by a partner to female gynae patients, do we include dementia patients (who would arguably benefit hugely from an advocate who fully understand their needs). We already have parents staying with and caring for children in hospital.
Should the campaign be for all patients to have a private room with facilities for a partner to stay 24x7?

But the type of 'mansplaining' you describe is a straw man scenario -

first, wards are staffed by women and men I had several male drs and male surgeon, had a cervical sweep by male drs, vaginal exam by male drs.

Men are on wards typically from 9am til 9pm and I don't see they are a major obstacle to women getting patient-crntered care.

As for 'advocate' perhaps you would prefer ' explained to them the situation' but that would be mansplainjng.' Perhaps he should have left at 9pm fur fear of encroaching on Women's space, and ^left me to get on with it' ie: dropping baby on the floor.

Many women will advocate fur a loved one on elderly care or children's wards - is that 'womansplaining'?

Likening women who have just given birth to children and elderly people (a lot of whom STILL believe that doctors are one step short of God) is indeed bullshit.

Mrs Cakes, I don't know. There is a gap that needs to be bridged between hospital care and home care. My mum wanted to look after a family member up to their death at home, so that they did not have to stay in the hospital. This took a lot of time and effort on the part of social workers, HCPs etc to check and prepare the home environment, to move equipment in, to show how to operate equipment etc. There was also then the daily visits by multiple HCPs (although even with all of this home care is far cheaper than a month in hospital).

And it is fairly unusual. Family members often prefer the hospital option or feel pushed in that direction. I'd like to see it easier for more people to provide care at home with HCP support. I'm not sure that relates well to post natal care though.