New campaign to allow partners to stay on maternity wards.

[MrsCakesPremonition]

MN have started a thread about possibly supporting a new campaign to allow partners to stay overnight on maternity wards.
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/mumsnet_campaigns/a2129215-What-do-you-think-about-spouses-partners-staying-overnight-on-postnatal-wards?msgid=48200610#48200610

I feel very uncomfortable about this for lots of practical reasons, but also partly because it feels like another safe space for women being sacrificed for the convenience of men. However, I'm aware that I may be underplaying women's right to have whatever support they want.
Is this a feminist issue and how are the rights of one group of women (to feel safe) balanced against another group of women (to have the support they want)?

I don't think this is a campaign worth getting behind. The vast majority of women will only be in hospital for one night and many will have other children that the father will want to be at home for in any case. So it seems like only a minority may actually need the father around and it does not seem worth the potential expense and disruption.

I solved the need to have DH around by having my second 2 children at home. I realise this isn't an option for everyone. However, if I had to be in hospital, I would happily sacrifice my lovely DH being there for a night or two to ensure the comfort and safety of all the new mothers.

My DH is adorable, but I have learned from Mumsnet that not all men are so benign in a relationship and indeed pregnancy can exacerbate DV. I am lucky that I would leave hospital for a kind man, so I can certainly manage for a night or two for the sake of those that won't.

When I hurt my shoulder falling off my horse, the nurse asked if I wanted DH to leave the cubicle - I realised she was concerned about DV. That is the reality for health care professionals. I could laugh about it with my DH, but it made us both aware of what health workers may encounter.

I was thinking of care in a hospital setting - i.e. the family member staying with the patient in their cubicle on the ward to make sure they have access to water, food, toilet facilities. If there are PN wards and children's wards already allowing family members to stay 24x7 to a) provide emotional support and b) care out basic care - should this be extended to all wards?

I think you are being deliberately obtuse captain chaos - many women are incapacitated after long labours, it's hard to get out of bed and stagger to the nurses station. Plenty of women are able to speak fir themselves - 90 year olds too, have spoken to many sharp elderly ladies who certainly do not think dr is god

I'm making a hash of explaining myself...
I guess I'm asking if there is something exceptional or special about postnatal women as patients which means that we are seriously discussing that they require round the clock family/partner support - or if that level of support is offered to PN women, should it also be offered (theoretically) to all in-patients?

What a dreadful idea.

The last thing women need. Just so a minority can have their hubby's getting them a cup of tea and a stoke FFS it's not all about you! Think of how uncomfortable it would be for lone women. It's really not a place for bumbling loud men taking selfies with newborns...

*stroke

BogQueen, I think all women should have better maternity care, which isn't achieved by your DH unless he's planning on a long term role of roaming maternity wards catching the babies of new mothers in general.

It isn't a straw man to talk of HCPs being female. Most of the staff on maternity wards are women. Most midwives and assistants are women. There are many other women saying that visiting hours as they stand were an obstacle to them getting care.

Mansplaining is an issue here because from the very start we are assuming 'partner' is father and romantic father. Birthright have now said when they repeatedly say partner they actually just mean a person chosen by the mother, doula etc. But yet the solutions are things like a double bed. Do new mothers and their 'partners' - doula, Auntie Beryl, your best friend really want to share a bed post birth with catheter etc in place? Probably not, but already the whole notion is centered around the male romantic partner and father of the child, as if that is the 'norm' in post natal non-professional care. That brings a social pressure into maternity situation where partner becomes the default expectation and any woman deviating from this (which is a lot, even in the current situation of birth partner) will then feel judged. It puts women under pressure to bring fathers in, even if they know the father is a violent, dangerous to themselves and others (as women have described their own ex partners on the other thread) because organisations like birthright are setting it up as the 'norm.'

This whole thing is a bit like saying, we don't need childcare provision in society because my DH earns enough for me to stay at home etc etc. Good for that woman. But this has nothing to do with the rights of women in general. Mothers in general need a guarantee of high quality health care from the NHS with adequate support. They don't need a further stamp of approval for being in a nuclear family or to be told yet again that the standard of care from society you and your child can expect to receive are dependent on whether or not your DH is a nice, caring guy that others will listen to.

first, wards are staffed by women and men I had several male drs and male surgeon, had a cervical sweep by male drs, vaginal exam by male drs.

Unless your husband is a nurse, doctor or midwife I don't want any chance of him seeing my breasts or bleeding vagina, thanks very much.
The 'but menz are there working' thing is offensive to male HCPs.
Tell you what, there are male primary school teachers so let's just let loads of random men wander round schools if they have school aged kids eh?
Random fathers aren't CRB checked, often don't know how to behave in a hospital ward environment (not out of meanness but because it's new and they're stressed/tired) and have one woman and one they think deserves all the care: theirs. And that's just the natural instincts of a loving non HCP of either gender, not drunk/violent ones.
It is not appropriate.
"The path to hell is paved with good intentions" ... what if husbands suddenly became aware that the 5 minutes a pushy dad spent talking to a nurse before realising his wife's need was OK to wait was 5 minutes of agony for a woman waiting for her painkillers (in the nurse's hand as she was waylaid)? He would be a nice guy doing right by his wife... but clearly in the wrong place and time.

I'm not advocating my DP being there all night. Have had three babies and survived.

I think if everyone had private rooms it would be quite nice - your partner or mother or friend

I think all women should have better maternity care, which isn't achieved by your DH unless he's planning on a long term role of roaming maternity wards catching the babies of new mothers in general

This, precisely.

Our default is to care about "our own". Which is lovely for our partner/family but not for others. In this case we need to take a step back and (1) separate the lack of staffing from the question: it is a problem, but visitors doing the work are not the solution and (b) understand that the very instinct that makes dads helpful to their wives can make them a problem to all the other mums because to them, those other mum's are nothing, invisible. His wife and PFB are the most deserving in his eyes. Particularly in the immediate post-birth moments. If there was one cup for water left, or a spare chair, or whatever, a rare husband indeed husband is going to ask around the ward to find out if there's anyone thirstier or with an older visitor than him before nabbing it for HIS wife and PFB.
He is caring.
But he is not an objective, caring professional.
He is getting in the way
A parent's instinct (both genders) is to fight tooth and nail for their PFB...which leads to more problems than solutions if it's a shared ward.

Almond, I think DadWas referred to the fact that most maternity wards have birth partner visiting hours 8-8 (for example) and "standard" hours for everyone else.

Yes, that.

DadWasHere, sorry, I was irritated by birthrights wording and proposed solution, which coincided with your wording. I didn't mean to be rude or attack your actual point.

Nice post dadwashere

On a very personal level (which I know is not the point) this would have been awful for me as a single parent giving birth. I relied on the professionalism of the staff to look after me and moving to a system where the squeaky wheel gets the most oil would be very damaging to all the rest of us without nice, articulate, pushy husbands to get attention for us. I'd be at the back of the queue with all the other single parents, women without good English, frightened women, women without any support etc etc, hiding behind the curtain and waiting for someone to come.

Someone mentioned on one of these 2 threads the fact the website says feminist groups are 'silent' on the matter of birth rights.

I am sorely tempted to send these threads to Southall Black Sisters for their take on it. As Quangle says, it is likely to be women alone, women with limited English etc' who will get ignored when nice pushy partners are there... and women who have been victims of domestic/sexual abuse or FGM are going to be 'silenced' at the one time they could disclose.

But I wonder if Birthrights think silence is preferable to 'you got it wrong'?

This is also a no from me. A hospital is for patients. The dad isn't a patient and will only take up room and time. More staff to care for the actual patients is the answer.

That said, I had my second at home to avoid the whole hospital thing and I would heartily recommend it if it's suitable for the mother.

Squizita is saying everything I think, but in a much clearer way. Thank you Squizita- we should send you to the birthright people- you would say all the right things.

Do people mind if I link this to the main thread, as Birthright are reading that one? Or could just flag this thread to Rowan who is liaising?

its v v odd that a womans rights organisation wouldn't have checked what other womens rights organisations are doing in the area before making a proposal.
even to google feminism & childbirth would have been illuminating

It puts women under pressure to bring fathers in, even if they know the father is a violent, dangerous to themselves and others (as women have described their own ex partners on the other thread) because organisations like birthright are setting it up as the 'norm.'

This is a really good point. This has already happened with the birth itself, where having the father there has become the norm to the point where someone can try to sue his ex for the right to attend, where it is accepted on TV that Jeremy Kyle can scream at a woman for refusing to allow her ex at the birth, or even threads on here where pregnant women would prefer a different birth partner but don't feel able to refuse the father his 'right' to be there. How many women will feel bullied or pressured into allowing the father overnight if this goes ahead?

I don't mind you linking it. If I wanted it kept secret I wouldn't post on the internet. Go ahead.

It's a no from me. Yes, when I had dc1 in hospital I hated DP being sent home at 4am when I got moved down to the postnatal ward & couldn't wait for him to come back again. If there was a single room system I would be happy for partners to stay over. But as I shuffled down the ward trailing blood & fainting, I am so glad the only people there were a) HCP and b) other women who had just been through the same thing & were equally in pain, shock & incapacitated! It was bad enough during the days when all the families, churches & randoms showed up but at least they went home for 12 hrs.

I had dc2 at home.

BillnTed, no I think it could be linked to the main MN thread although the stupid MRA posted a bit upthread, but never mind

Ok, done it!

I've had the experience of partners staying overnight and it was horrific. It wasn't an official policy but the ward was too understaffed to kick them out. I was in labour and for around 2-3 hours I had a man coming into my 'area' behind my curtains and telling me to shut the fuck up etc. I was on all fours with only a t-shirt on part of this time. I was alone as I don't know anyone with a sense of entitlement large enough to stay beyond visiting times and I had another child at home. He and a teenage boy had a physical fight as the teenager wanted him to shut the fuck up too. I tried to find a midwife when I passed a lot of blood into the toilet. I couldn't find one but I was called a fucking dirty bitch for not flushing the toilet (I thought the MV may have needed to see). It wasn't another patient who wanted to use the patient toilet, it was twat face following me about.

Eventually I was moved to the labour ward to deliver but I was 10cm when I got down there. I was bloody lucky not to have to push dd out with him standing at the bottom of my bed.

So, it's a no from me. I would support a campaign for better care for women but I don't think there is much political incentive. Babies will continue to be born regardless of conditions, no waiting lists or targets to worry about. Babies die. Mothers die. It's called a 'tragedy' instead of a 'fucking disgrace'.