Feminist Pub VII - Chat, questions, random thoughts too small for a thread ...

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

Just setting this up while we finish off the last few posts on the old thread. Come in and pull up a bar stool!

I am and disappointed at you lot. Where are your maternal instincts? Real women like this sort of things. Especially smelly nappies - they show that you are doing it right and your child has been ingesting nutrition. Besides, you love them and therefore you love everything they do (and poo). When they look at you with their big innocent eyes you would happily wipe their bums for them. It just goes to show that all this modern emancipation of women is killing their instinct.

I told my colleague that I learned my "maternal instinct" from books but I don't think he believed me. I learn everything from books ...

My DC can now swim in the pools on their own. So now I have to make myself go with them so that I do some exercise myself ...

How much feminist rage can one bag of charcoal generate?

Women do food that's no fun. Not like men. They BBQ. That's so much more fun. Women make people eat salad. Yuck.

Having said that I forgot there was leftover food and went to buy new stuff and now we are going to have to eat the new stuff tomorrow and the old stuff today, IYSWIM. I don't meal plan. Or rather, the plan is all in my head and when my head is not working well the plan is not working well...

Food is the job of mothers, so a barbecue is her 'night off'.

As you said, mothers do boring food.

Only men can do fire. Grrrr. (Actually, this last bit is true in our house. Not that I can't, but I don't. Not sure why. Probably because DH lived in a house with open fires and I didn't, so he was infinitely better at getting them going back in the days before those 'light and stand back' bags).

Dp doesn't like bbqs. I do. I love fires, I spent many a happy evening as a teenager burning sausages and melting marshmallows over a campfire on guide camp. So if there is a bbq at our house I'm in charge of the fire and dp is in charge of the salad (using lettuce I grew this year [smug])

It is funny about food though, isn't it? I do healthy food but when DH do their tea it's often pizzas (though sometimes it's steak ). So DH do fun food while I do boring ones? Except I do awesome home made pizzas. Hmm. Must remind them of that more often. But of course it's OK for "dads" to do "fun food" occasionally because "mums" bloody make sure food is healthy most of the time. Or something like that. I am frazzled and am hiding here so that I don't have to make sure the grubby things wash themselves.

Tsk tsk. Don't you daft wimminz know that only men can BBQ food? If women BBQ food, their entire reproductive system falls out and makes a horrible mess.

No, women are expected to make salads which never get eaten but have to be there or the world ceases to rotate slice buns, ensure that every flavour and style of sauce and relish is on hand, pre cook chicken so that the BBQing male doesn't kill people. You know, the grunt work. When everyone is sated on their meat eating frenzy, everyone will congratulate the man on his amazing cooking skills.

It's the only form of cooking some men do, because obviously those men believe that if they get too close to an actual cooker, their dicks will fall off.

On another note, I have broken my bloody filling and want to whimper like a small child

Ouch Capt

That sounds sore Capt. I think I need a filling but I'm a bit nervous of dentists so I keep putting off going to get it sorted. I don't need to eat hard food

My dad used to be one of these men who never cooked anything but "fun" foods. I always knew when growing up that if dad was in charge of dinner then it would be something and chips. The stupid thing is, he was a sahd while my mum worked ft, why the hell was she in charge of cooking healthy meals for us all?

Hullo all, have been off for a bit marking dissertations and weeping and minorly distracted with the cleaning thread in chat.

I have to say I don't pick up the slack when DP doesn't organise presents for his family though have given them presents from me. MiL already judges me so I should at least give her a focus for the ire.

We can really slip into gendered stupidity wrt housekeeping/ running the house here, it caused me a lot of irritation and resentment, quite a few rows, etc. I found the most effective way to change was to act entitled, in a way. So I'll ask 'what' s for tea?' and 'did you get the milk?' or say stuff like 'the bed isn't made?' without - and this is key to it all - arranging that he is doing tea, shopping or making the bed. I do that stuff too, when it's sensible and practical, but if it is sensible and practical that he could do it, I act like I expect him to notice and do it.

I do thank him for doing stuff and expect to be thanked, if he doesn't thank, I'll say, 'I just cleaned the bathroom,' and he'll say, 'right, thanks.'

DP said something brilliant tonight, from my pov, which relates to a huge discussion we got into at the weekend with people we know through our kids, we were at a birthday party. Some of the men we'd never met, and DP said he liked x particularly because he'd listened and asked interested questions as the women had been describing the sexism we encountered walking down the street whereas some of the other men got really confrontational (I think we won but it was textbook, 'what aboutery/ NAMALT then some bullshit 'it's primal' apology). DP, whom I have not coached was just amazed that someone could hear that coming from women whose judgement they are meant to trust and they didn't just say, "right, sorry, what can I do?" and thought much more highly of the guy sitting and listening carefully and not going on the attack. I know I'm in danger of fainting because he's decent but I was in full throttle that afternoon and I felt totally supported then and reaffirmed tonight. He does brilliant teas, too, inc salad, but he did work as a chef and really personally values healthy eating.

"...amazed that someone could hear that coming from women whose judgement they are meant to trust and they didn't just say, "right, sorry, what can I do?"..."

Yes! I'm constantly amazed that people would trust me to do all kinds of things but when it comes to sexism - "oh you are being too extreme/sensitive/silly."

OutsSelf I am also a fan of being entitled. I did slip up and send DH a reminder yesterday about booking leave during the school holidays, because I just couldn't risk him not doing it, but all I sent was 'has your leave for the holidays been approved yet?'. Fully expecting a "oh, was I definitely going to do that? What dates are the holidays again? Which days don't you have cover for?" I was very pleased with "11 and 18th July, yes? All done". But that's still not the norm; I'm absolutely the one who manages the school holiday calender, and in fact I'm the one who has arranged the rest of the holiday cover, largely by dint of offering to trade days with other mums so I have a pack of kids to look after on my days "off" and DH has one.

"What's for tea" here gets "I don't care", though. Oh, the luxury of not caring what you eat, wear or do, knowing that you're partnered to someone who will make those decisions based on an in depth knowledge of your preferences and a desire to please.

(Hasn't been around for a while, but currently on a late night mn frenzy fueled by Bacardi & Coke).

I have ended up in a situation where it is inevitable that I do almost all the 'wife work' stuff. I teach at the school that dd goes to, dh works the opposite side of the city.

He does pick up dd once a week and get her dinner etc as I go to college, but otherwise it is always me and it would be ridiculous for it not to be. I mean, I'm there, in the same building (room sometimes) as other parents, so I book social stuff. And take dd, and bring her home and do dinner. I mean, how stupid would it look to say to someone 'email dh to see if we're free that weekend' when I am standing right there. Or for him to drive right across the city to collect dd when I am in the room next to her.

But I end up doing everything as a result, and then that becomes the norm, so even at weekends we slip into that pattern unless I think about it and deliberately remove myself.

And I am the only one of us that goes anywhere near a grocery store - I drive right past 2 of them on the way to/from work, so I end up doing that. And I get home from work first, so dinner tends to be me. Although I've decided that we don't need to eat dinner, so he's lucky if there's bread and cooked meat, then he can sort something out for himself. But I still end up cooking for dd.

Kickass Same situation here with the "wife work", though when a Riverford person knocked on my door asking me "how many people do I cook for" I was so cross and said that I don't bloody "cook for" people - I cook for me and they are grateful that I leave them some... But the truth is of course that I do take into account what they like and not like and cook accordingly.

But I like grocery-shopping. It's how I was brought up, I guess - going to the market was an outing and I still take pleasure in choosing what to eat ...

Viz wifework, being a single parent I have always been responsible for it and in many ways that's easier than constantly being on the case of someone who has that entitlement without realising it - it's hard work to monitor someone else's contribution and to feel responsible for that person's contribution - it's like not only do you find yourself monitoring their actual work, you find yourself monitoring their attitudes which translate into the work (or lack of it). It's bloody exhausting and I really wouldn't want to do it for a grown-ass man.

However, of course I have to do it for my children. And this is where I have a slight problem which maybe MN FWR can help me with. I never quite know how reasonable I am being in expecting them to pull their weight. I've said to both of them that they should be doing at least 25% of the work, because they're both old enough to pick up their own shit, which is what most of the work is. DD is fine with it (she's 12) DS is pretty awful - takes hours to clean his room, is always ready with an excuse why he can't unload the dishwasher, etc.

I've got round it by instituting a "taking it in turns" principle - I hung the clothes on the line yesterday, DD did it the day before, so it's your turn today. The logic of that is irrefutable, so DS doesn't argue with it. But the problem is the ownership thing. Getting DC's to own their own shit and know they're responsible for it, is the big issue for me because I don't know how reasonable it is to expect teenagers to be remotely sensible about this issue. I veer between thinking I'm expecting too much because I'm so attuned to it and worrying that maybe I'm giving DS a free pass because he's a teenager. (I'm not worried about DD taking ownership a) she does anyway and b) society will make it clear to her that she owns housework.) It's made worse by the fact that he has honestly terrible organisational skills, which doesn't help him and sometimes I can see that he's trying really hard but just can't hack it.

It's the sort of thing that doesn't merit a whole thread but it's sort of linked in to the wifework discussion.

I'm a single parent, too, Basil and have had similar thoughts/battles with DCs. I have four who were aged 12 down to 3 when I becme a single parent and are now 17 down to 8. I have never gone down the route of rotas/allocating responsibilities etc because I am not organised enough I want DCs to take ownership - to understnd that all of the housework (whether tidying their own rooms or picking up someone else's towels left lying around in bathroom or the cleaning the kitchen or the gardening) is eveyone's responsibility. We all enjoy living in this house so we should all take responsibility for it. I also work more or less full time (although I am lucky enough to be in a job where I get the school holidays off) so I tend to deal with housework in 2 ways: a massive push on a Saturday morning where I hand out jobs randomly and we all muck in and get it done or, during the week, they all know there is a cetain standard I expect to have been achieved by the time I get home in the evening and, if that does not happen, then there will be lots of shouting and certain privileges will be lost (older ones grounded, younger ones loss of computer time/ no stories in the evening etc). Other ways I have enforced ownership iclude simply not doing something. Once they get to high school, I no longer iron clothes for example - if they want to go to school in crumpled shirts then that's their lookout. Clothes which remain in a festering heap in bedrooms don't get washed etc

Obviously, according to them, I am the only horrible mother in the world who makes her children do housework and gardening.

I have a similar view to Rosebud but DH works more hours so dd and I end up doing chores together while dh is at work. Then dd wants to know why dh doesn't do as much. Dd and I get 3 months for the summer so it would be unfair to not get on with chores during the day, but she's seeing a pattern of women doin. Housework and men getting out of it because they do the paid work.

During term time there is a much more even balance as I am working.

LOL, me too Rosabud, funny how many "onlyhorriblemothersintheworld" there are out there isn't it?

Hi, all!

Just popping in to share me amazing epiphany wrt why I enjoyed so many childhood books or films I enjoyed in spite of their obvious misogynistic depiction of females: I've pretty much always identified with the male protagonist, the hero, the saviour . I could quite happily see myself in a shining suit of armour saving the damsel in distress an'all….

I'm just back from having taken DS1 and 2 to see 'How to Train Your Dragon 2' and we all had a fab time; I really enjoyed it. Then I started thinking: it fails the Bechdel Test spectacularly (even though Astrid is v cool, as is Hiccup's mother), but my, it was exciting. And I was Hiccup all the way through . So, now we want a pet dragon…

And DH had dinner ready for me when we got home. Result.

Yes, I identify with the male hero a lot in children's stories. Now in adult fiction I mostly read books with female heroes, and they do all the exciting stuff that the boys used to do when I was younger. Mostly they get to slay dragons, be dragons, kill/be werewolves or vampires,etc.

I've had the same experience.

I started really noticing a while back that lots of my favourite female authors of children's books write male main characters (Lucy Boston, Rosemary Sutcliffe, Susan Cooper, Cynthia Harnett). There was nothing like Hunger Games around when I was little, or not that I can think of (not that that is perfect). A bit depressing.

Though, I am going to be positive and say that I am currently so so excited and happy about feminism. I'm really enjoying it at the moment.

LRD, I'm glad to hear that you are excited and also enjoying feminism at the moment. Long may that continue! Is your current enjoyment of feminism being fuelled by anything in particular?

Thanks!

It is, though I'm being a bit cautious as it's very new. But it looks as if I'm going to manage to make a project I've been really hoping to do, actually happen (it'll be for academics and non-academic feminists, so should be fun). It just feels lovely to get to work on feminism, instead of doing feminism outside work.