Feminist Pub VII - Chat, questions, random thoughts too small for a thread ...

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

Just setting this up while we finish off the last few posts on the old thread. Come in and pull up a bar stool!

It feels, not seems.

This whole fear-of-being-hurt thing is another way how raising our boy and girl children differently is damaging IMO. Boys are encouraged to run fast, and throw far and hit/kick hard, girls to be graceful and elegant (and not show their knickers FFS - knickers/pants, same difference).

I agree Outs, learning that not every physical hurt is The End is very empowering, even out with martial arts.

Hello!

There's a self-defence thing running near me. I'll look it up. V. inspired by outs, though a bit at what constitutes romantic outings in outs household.

Men (ok ok not all men) make rules to make sure they don't lose. Eg. not letting women play many international chess tournaments. FFS. Not letting women ride in big cycling races. As for being the "weaker sex" they forgot about that in WW2 when suddenly women can work in factories. Honestly. The bare-faced whatsit of it all!

"make rules to make sure they don't lose."

Yep this is what I meant. The rules are cultural as much as actual rules that define winners and losers in sport - or legal or illegal in life - it is as much about informally but rigidly enforced censure and reward as anything

eg - ultra running - a practically invisible sport that women are brilliant at

aggression - rewarded in men, punished in women

etc etc

So yes as an individual I think I could gain a lot from being confident in my physical abilities, but I think if women as a class gained ability and confidence in this area there would be ways to make it work against them.

Oh look there is one - making women's activities all aobut looking good for men - making the female body primarily decorative - so any woman who tries to improve her own body for its own sake is cultrually hived off into a range of activities that are about getting smaller, prettier, and even (poledancing!) pornier, fgs

Really interesting discussion on strength. I am trying to instil the 'run faster, jump higher' type of striving in my daughters. Goodness knows whether I will succeed. Or indeed whether it will do them any good.

I am starting Slimming World today. Don't want to tell people in RL for fear of inane comments. Am determined to keep my focus on the fact that I want to be a healthy BMI and fit back in all my normal pre-pregnancy clothes. Not get caught up in disordered eating discussions.

Yy Mab - remember all the "delicate female flesh" shit when boxing was introduced at the Olympics for women.

I really enjoyed reading this discussion on strength and physical self-confidence last night and was itching to post but was on my phone and had too much to say for phone typing!

On the "fear of men" thread I brought up the idea that women who do martial arts, or who are confident in their own physical strength through some other training are often in the rather lovely position of losing most of their fear of men. It really is so much more about how we're conditioned rather than actual anatomical differences between men and women.

I too do a martial art, and I face off against men with no problem. Like Outself said, we small women can duck in under their defences. We don't do any full contact fighting, and I'm not under any illusions that if I were to face a drunken thug in a pub who gets into scraps all the time, he would wipe the floor with me. But the same is true of your average man - a man unused to being a fight situation would be equally powerless against a man experienced at fighting and not afraid to inflict serious hurt. And in a fight against a man unused to fighting, I would win because I know a) how to avoid being hit and b) how to use my body to deliver maximum impact despite my size.

And do you know what? That confidence I feel that I can "handle myself" must show on the outside. On that "fear of men" thread, it was mentioned that men seem to expect women to move out of the way on the street. But I don' think it's just about men and women, I think it's an unconscious power play that men do with everyone - sizing each other up, deciding who is dominant and the loser has to move out of the way. When I walk down the street, most men move out of my way.

This isn't just about women taking up martial arts in droves, I think we just need a push for women to realise their strength. It's true that men know the whole "men are stronger and that's why we're in charge" is not nearly as universal or true as we are all led to believe, and the way boys and girls are raised to develop or suppress their physical strength exacerbates a difference that isn't so great in its natural state.

A lot of this ties into how women are not allowed to compete against men in sport. It has fuck all to do with making it fair to women because otherwise they'd never win. What about team sports? There is no individual winner there so why not women in a team? Can you honestly tell me that every single male premier league footballer is better than every single female football player (do women even have a premier league?) Of course not. And if so, the disproportionate amount of resources put into men's sports over women's sports plays a huge part in that. The only reason women are not allowed to compete with men in most sports out there is because it will show men up for not being as universally strong and superior as they would like us to believe that they are.

If men truly believed they were so fucking superior, they'd have no problem in letting women compete on an equal footing. But they don't let us, for the simple reason that they're afraid they'd lose.

In the Subjection of Women too JS Mill said that for goodness' sake can we stop forbidding women this or that because if they really can't do it then we'll soon find out. He also said that it seemed as if men knew that given a choice women won't marry them, because otherwise why would Victorian men devote so much energy into making sure that women are good at nothing and can't do anything except marry.

I'm only and that we are still talking about this over 100 years later.

Buffy, the terms that matter most between men and women down the years are surely IPV and self defence, not sport or expeditions or mowing the lawn.

Buffy, I wish I'd had that link the other day to paste on Facebook when the discussion on female refs in football was being had. I know they were talking about refs, but I wanted to make the point that the whole game is stupidly misogynistic, so it's not surprising that that extends to the gender of referees.

I disagree, BillnTed. Sports is huge preoccupation for a large chunk of the world's population, and as such a very In-Your-Face reminder on a daily basis that Men are Stronger and Better Than Women. I would argue that sports is one of the major pillars supporting the patriarchy, and the whole thing would wobble very seriously if women started to be seen to be capable of holding their own against men in sport.

Also, in terms of changing the rules to make sure they win, I am reminded of Paula Radcliffe being stripped of her world marathon record because she had a male pacemaker. She still ran the time, why the fuck does the gender of her pacemaker matter? They did re-instate her record in the end, but they have kept the rule about women no longer being allowed to set records with male pacemakers. Because women are catching up to men in marathon running (and why not, when a small body type seems most advantageous in running) and that can't be allowed to happen. queenmab mentioned ultra running, where women are indeed better than men. That seems to be allowed, as it's a "fringe" sport so nobody has really noticed. But the marathon is very high profile, so women must be kept in their place - behind men.

Friend posted picture of her DD dancing in a ballet concert. All comments about how pretty she looked.

In terms of fighting men though, IME men's violence towards women is very different that their violence towards men. Men square up to other men, and face them head-on. That allows them both equal opportunity to hit, punch, kick etc. Any violence I've experienced from men hasn't been like that at all - they get up close to you, and don't hit you, but sexually assault you, so quickly that it's over before you know it. It's a completely different, stealthy sort of violence that is so much harder to "fight" against.

I really recognise that Cailin, men fighting each other are wary in a way that gives their opponents opportunities. It wasn't until I started sparring with weapons that I really recognised what a massive difference this makes. That was fully seven years into my training. Also, as a woman socialised to fear, squaring up to a man you are full of mortal dread, which is massively inhibiting. Whereas the men I trained with didn't really experience that until we got to use weapons, even facing each other they were convinced by their bodily integrity, they may not hav liked getting hurt but they weren't in real fear of serious injury. Fighting in that state is a learned skill - I learned it years ago when we first started sparring. So in that sense and in that moment, I was ahead of them - for the first time in seven years!!! It was brilliant. I'm still best at weapons, because I didn't have to do a year of figuring out how to handle fear, I just got straight on with learning the technique, uninhibited. I really do love weapons for this reason. They also are much fun at home ha ha.

LordCopper, ballet dancers are immensely strong and physically well organised. The big schools don't take small boys or tall girls because in partner work they want the boys to be bigger. Just another example of the way that relative frailty and delicacy is socially constructed.

Penguins, have you read Fat is a Feminist Issue? Because half of it is a self help book to address weight loss. The overall process probably is slower but more meaningful overall because it just works straight on the problem, which is eating in a self sabotaging way.

On the subject of ballet dancers - ad made me smile. Such a break from the norm :)

Outs - I keep meaning to. To be honest, my issue isn't that 'emotional' at the moment. Normally my weight regulates pretty well. I am just hungry for 9 months when pregnant and therefore end up overweight at the end. Then I'm not good at regulating my intake enough to bring it down rather than keep it stable, which is why a 'plan' suits me.

It has taken me quite a few years to get to this point though.

Full of feminist rage. (But can't give details yet. Low level persistent unconscious misogyny.)

Do talk about it when you get a chance Uptoapoint. It helps IME.

Penguins, I've just finished SW. You shouldn't find anything disordered in the group itself. It is just healthy eating and you don't feel hungry on it.

Thanks Almond. It looks pretty sensible. TBH my comment was more that saying you are on a diet seems to give people generally license for lots of "oooh, I'm so naughty having this cake. I'll skip tea" bollocks.

Just seen this on another site. Stupid, yes, but also horrific.