Oxford Union president rape allegations - alumni open letter

[FairPhyllis]

The president of the Oxford Union (which is a debating society at Oxford), Ben Sullivan, is currently being investigated over allegations of rape and attempted rape of two undergraduates at the university. He is refusing to resign or suspend his presidency. Speakers are beginning to pull out of events.

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/10845979/Oxford-Union-boycott-after-president-returns-despite-police-investigation-into-rape-allegations.html

If you are a member of the university or an Oxford alumna/us, and feel strongly about the minimisation of rape and sexual assault "on campus" there is an open letter you can sign here calling for Sullivan to step aside while under investigation. It is organised by the OUSU VP (Women) and other students.

Justice and truth are justice and truth.
Everyone should be trying to obtain that, not going around with bias. It explains just about everything to do with feminism.

My post just then was to Buffy. Not got time to read yours yet LRD.

That's very gnomic of you, but not terribly useful in this situation.

We are trying to obtain justice and truth. I believe your approach perpetuates injustice and spreads falsehood, I'm afraid.

Ah, ok, cross posted.

I'll pop back when I've done my shopping and crushed the patriarchy with my huge, unjust doc martens of feminism.

"everything they say is easy to dismiss as far as I am concerned"

Oh no.

It is widely recognised that everyone has biases, and the people who claim that they do not, are the most biased of all.

missed a load of posts there.

I am enjoying the conclusion that feminism is an appalling political stance because feminists care about women

& lol billnteds last post

Seriously, pplease, if you didn't think feminism was primarily focused on women, what DID you think it was about?

No, justice and truth are words that describe social constructions.

Absolutely wrong.

So feminists are not even about truth either.

It would, as I have said, be very different if I were not discussing things on MN, but making a judgement in court. But I'm not, am I?

The two should most definitely be one and the same.

"The two should most definitely be one and the same."

Why?

The judgement you would make in court should be exactly the same as what you utter on mumsnet.

Aargh. This is so basic!
Truth and justice. That which feminists throw out of the window with their huge great biases.

Right.

So if a woman posts on MN saying she is an abusive relationship and xyz has happened, your stance is that she should be neither believed nor disbelieved (which is not what happens in society at the moment but we'll go with it) and questioned closely to try to judge whether she is telling teh truth or not.

You see at the moment unless there is a very good reason, posters believe her and give her advice accordingly.

I like the way it works at the moment. I doubt that it is going to change because you have said so

Justice and truth depend greatly upon your own perspective. A person cannot exist without bias, and I for one embrace mine. I am bias against greed, suffering and inequality. To truly exist without bias I'd need to go up a mountain or in the middle of a desert by myself and mediate on nothing all day. There is still no guarantee I'd achieve anything beyond fuck and all in roughly that order.

I'm not particularly bias towards women per se, but see above re: suffering and inequality. Thus you'll often see me supporting the likes of Buffy and LRD. We may not share that feminist bias, but I'll respect it as I truly believe they want to move society in the same direction I do.

Different bias can be a good thing. More perspectives on an issue can be additive and revealing, instead of divisive and adversarial. Plus I find the notion that feminism is bias therefore unjust very insulting on behalf of my feminist friends. As well as just plain wrong.

Talking about justice in such an ephemeral and general way is not particularly helpful. Better I'd say to roll up your sleeves and get your hands dirty in this imperfect world and try to make it that little bit fairer and just if only in a small way today than it was yesterday.

In that case, I put it to you, Ms Ppplease, that you don't have enough evidence that Ms C Winkelman deliberately wore something less than perfect in order to feature on the Telegraph Pinterest site.

Truth and justice. That which feminists throw out of the window with their huge great biases.

That is such, such bollocks. Feminism is the fight for equality - because women are not equal in society.

Home Office stats show that 90% of rapists walk free - women are so uneasy reporting rape that only 10% report. How is that truth and justice?

Well, thank the Goddess that all of these unbiased judges are around to save the justice system from feminists.

(Trigger warning)

www.itv.com/news/2013-08-07/judge/

Am a little aghast as well that anyone genuinely adheres to the idea that "justice" is completely independent of social constructions etc.

This is patent nonsense. For a given crime, the justice applied will vary according to the country / people handing down that justice. It is entirely subjective and dependent on the social (& religious etc) mores of the place where it is applied.

For example, in some countries committing murder will get you the death penalty, in others a prison term. Both are reasonably called "justice" in the juristictions they apply. Both are subject to change / pressure to change from people who disagree with them - some people in areas with the death penalty want it gone, and vice versa. Justice is not a subjective inviolable fact, what it amounts to varies over time and by area.

This is obvious common sense, isn't it?

I had no idea that feminists didnt believe in truth and justice.
Ah well. The end.
I am leaving the thread at this point.

I'm a straw man, floating in the sky
I'd like to understand you, but I sometimes wonder why...

I've got to the post where please declares that one can be 'absolutely wrong' about truth and justice being words to describe social constructs, and my concentration is getting distracted by the soft thud of four millenia of philosophers rolling over in their graves.

Does it get better? I'm off to AIBU to whine about the nice lady who banged my car. See, equal opportunities whinger, me.