Oxford Union president rape allegations - alumni open letter

[FairPhyllis]

The president of the Oxford Union (which is a debating society at Oxford), Ben Sullivan, is currently being investigated over allegations of rape and attempted rape of two undergraduates at the university. He is refusing to resign or suspend his presidency. Speakers are beginning to pull out of events.

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/10845979/Oxford-Union-boycott-after-president-returns-despite-police-investigation-into-rape-allegations.html

If you are a member of the university or an Oxford alumna/us, and feel strongly about the minimisation of rape and sexual assault "on campus" there is an open letter you can sign here calling for Sullivan to step aside while under investigation. It is organised by the OUSU VP (Women) and other students.

Both of whom should take allegations seriously and respond appropriately.

Thank you, yes, that is what I want to say.

I will be back later.

Innocent until proven guilty as with Annabel K as people say although in her case she settled with him and paid him off so you might argue she is arguably guilty and our Oxford man not.

How so?

Jane, is it your view that no one under investigation for a serious crime (rape, GBH, attempted murder, causing death by dangerous driving etc) step down from their elected role whilst under investigation?

Only if charged (and only in some roles) and the man here said he would step down if charged. Otherwise you end up penalising the innocent. That threshold of evidence to charge is the crucial thing. So many teachers by the way have been hugely damaged by totally made up accusations by typical teenagers, careers destroyed etc because of our culture of saying no smoke without fire. It has to stop and I hope feminists will be at the forefront of this not working against fairness and justice.

Aw, how inspiring of you, jane.

Why don't you become a feminist, then you can do it all right and we can stop our pitiful efforts to worry about women being raped and worry about Proper Things like fictional examples of people whose livez woz ruined, eh?

It's vitally important for women's safe and uninhibited participation in university life that rape is treated as a serious crime and that university societies, particularly one as famous and influential as the Union, do not play a part in rape culture by minimising it and protecting potential perpetrators.

Women are not safer if he isnt in the role than if he is.

I am picking up points for earlier in the thread.

from not for

From where I am sitting it looks like Buffy may be biased towards women, but LRD isnt.

Worry should not trump justice.

I do wish you hadn't used "falsely accused" upthread, Jane, as there's no indication that the police are investigating any false accusations.

please, I disagree with that, though I understand why you are saying it.

A huge part of the problem in rape culture is that women do not feel safe to come forward with accusations. Many do not even realize they have been raped until much later in their lives. This is not necessarily directly because of rapists' actions (though it can be). It's because our culture tells women that rape is something shameful, that women lie about, and which ruins the lives of 'decent men'.

If this man had stood aside, I firmly believe women would have felt safer to come forward - the more so, now he's not been charged, because it would be like him saying 'I'm not standing for this, I'm going to prove that I trust the law and I don't need scaremongering that harms women to defend me'.

Put it this way: can you imagine being 18, a student, and having been raped in Oxford today, having heard all the horrible things people have been saying about false rape accusations (which we don't even know that these were - it works both ways, our lack of knowledge)? You would need to have a very strong character to do that, I'm afraid.

please - I am absolutely biased towards women. That doesn't mean I support injustice. Politically and ideologically, I am in favour of anything that helps women.

I like men just fine, but I'll let them get on with their own stuff.

Sorry to triple post ... yes, please, that's precisely the point.

Worry should not trump justice. But in these cases, it generally does, because people's worry about 'false rape allegations' almost always drowns out any attempt at justice. Many, many women who've been raped do not feel able to bring charges. It is very harsh to put the burden on them, rather than those who spread rape myths.

A bias can never be justice.

Because justice is justice.

"A bias can never be justice."

Do you think the police, the CPS, the legal system, the judges are, uniquely, unbiased?

please, come on.

Justice isn't three-year-olds crying 'it's not fair!'

I (as a person) have a political bias in favour of women, because I am one individual trying (along with lots of other individuals) to redress a much bigger social and political bias against women.

Were I a judge, this would no doubt be something I'd have to keep carefully in the 'non-professional' side of my life.

As a randomer posting on MN, I am reasonably competent my personal bias is no more harmful than yours, or anyone else's.

It is exceptionally naive to imply that anyone is free of bias, btw.

Everyone should try to be just. Absolutely everyone.
Having bias is not on.
If you know you have it, a person should try and get rid of it.

It is therefore very easy now to say that if feminists are using bias[I didnt previously realise this btw], then quite frankly, everything they say is easy to dismiss as far as I am concerned.

The world should attempt for truth and justice.

Bias should not come into it.

I will pick up on some other points, but I have to dip in and out for a while.

I think you are misunderstanding me, please.

If you have two hungry people, one of whom has ten apples and the other of whom has two, and you have two apples to give away, is it 'justice' to give them an apple each? Or should you try to give the person with two apples more, because they are in greater need?

You could argue only the first option is 'just,' but that'd be to ignore the wider picture of injustice.

To claim your actions as 'unbiased' would be laughable.

In this situation - where the 'apples' are us discussing things on MN, well, yeah, I am likely to spend more of my time discussing rape myths as they affect women, and rape as it affects women, than the reverse. I do not feel that this is 'unjust,' but merely redressing the balance.

It would, as I have said, be very different if I were not discussing things on MN, but making a judgement in court. But I'm not, am I?