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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

TERF

437 replies

ReallyFuckingFedUp · 17/05/2014 00:11

So I have seen this expression a lot lately... and TERF gets thown out a lot when feminists are discussing things that are only capable of affecting biologically female women.

And I just can't get my head around it tbh. I don't think feminism should exclude people I think it helps everyone. I get really upset when white feminists forget about WOC or Lesbians, or other minority groups because the point of feminism is to make women's lives better. SO if there an issue that is unique to black women (for example) it is still all of our issue and should be dealt with by all feminist.

So if trans women want in on feminism why do they think can exclude the majority of women by saying we can't discuss our issues? And if trans people want to be accepted and have their rights championed by feminism is that fair since the majority of feminists aren't also suffering those same problems? Is it not a huge double standard?

Abortion rights and prenatal care and contraceptive health, vaginal rape. Are these things off the table now for feminism?

Am I getting it wrong, missing something? It feels to me like male privilege, telling women what they can and can't talk about..and doing so in a way where they actually feel guilty as though they have done something wrong.

OP posts:
MooncupGoddess · 30/05/2014 19:25

It would be really interesting to get a sense - even the vaguest sense - of what proportion of people identifying as trans have been/are going through full physical transition, partial physical transition (e.g. hormones but no surgery) or no physical transition at all.

Does anyone have any statistics?

WhentheRed · 30/05/2014 19:33

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calmet · 30/05/2014 19:33

The majority of Trans people seem to take hormones. No idea how many MtoF have breast implants. I did read on an NHS site that about 20% of MtoF have genital surgery and about 3% of FtoM.

calmet · 30/05/2014 19:38

Some FtoM also have hysterectomys and double masectomies. I have no stats, but just reading FtoM's talking, many have had double masectomies, but not genital surgery.

In terms of Trans people's health, it is concerning that so many young Trans people on the internet talk about buying hormones over the internet, rather than going through a Dr.

WhentheRed · 30/05/2014 19:44

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MooncupGoddess · 30/05/2014 19:47

Thanks, that's interesting!

Oh it's all so complex... I don't think there is an easy answer but it would be nice if trans activists and the more uncompromising radfems (and I have seen horrible hate speech on both sides) could try to understand the other point of view a bit better.

calmet · 30/05/2014 19:51

Transgender is an umbrella term. In reality there are big differences between the MtoF who has full surgery, before transitioning was an effeminate gay man and just wants to quietly get on with their life; and the MtoF who has no surgery or hormones, is a "lesbian" and spends their time lobbying viciously for Trans rights.

MiniTheMinx · 30/05/2014 20:03

What I find fascinating about this is how gendered basic things like movement are - things you would think are innate... Boy's body language doesn't get policed like that

I think it does, it's the flip side. Men and boys are expected to perform masculinity, to the extent that men who don't, feel less like men. And other men sure as hell notice when a man is being one of the "boys" This is the way in which patriarchy entrenches gender binary positions, and is now both antagonistic to trans but the social force that propels it.

What I find interesting is that trans seems to do two contradictory things, it breaks down the gender binary and it perpetuates it. It reinforces gender stereotyping when men transition and fully try to adopt "femininity" because it supports the hypothesis that men and women should look and behave differently. It seems to challenge gender when trans people pick and choose, are fluid or refuse to fully transition. Although this then gives rise to the problem of shared spaces and safety.

Most feminists agree that we perform gender, it isn't innate or natural, and we need to challenge stereotyping. So I have some sympathy with this idea that men should be able to wear a dress and call themselves Sarah. I have a problem when Sarah decides to perform gender because this often caricatured expression reinforces the gendered way in which we should act, or at worst is used as a way to belittle and piss take the ways in which women are thought to behave.

I also think there is a correlation between the rise in men transitioning or adopting the gender identity of woman with the rise in young women now self identifying as bisexual. It could be argued that social forces shape sexuality and therefore discourage deviation from heterosexuality, and that human's are now far from what Marx would have called species being, we are the sum and total now of the human made social forces that condition us. The same argument can be made to show how new forces within advanced capitalism has commoditised the female form, privileging female beauty over male, in its quest to create new segmented markets. Now, when most products are sold with sex, and women are increasingly objectifying themselves and other women, it is only a small leap to suggest that this conditions our sexuality. This same process, I believe has given rise to the further entrenchment of gender roles but also to the rise in men seeking to act out their sexual fantasy as "the objectified woman" or to transition. The objectified woman, is the woman who displays her subordinated status by behaving and looking like the "object" in almost comically exaggerated ways, enhanced ,airbrushed, using obviously sexual body language and clothing to enhance her status as sexual object. Desirable, available, but aloof staring back at us from every paper, magazine and webpage, men desire her, she is the epitome of success, little wonder we have men wanting to be her.

Beachcomber · 31/05/2014 08:36

Maybe Mini - I think that wanting to be someone can be extremely possessive, really it is wanting to own someone. Wanting to own their very person and identity and I find that disturbing.

I don't know if figures exist for how many trans have surgery but I agree with others that ball park figures suggest it is far from the majority. I don't blame people for not wanting to put themselves through it and I disagree with Genital Reassignment Surgery. As says Sheila Jeffreys, I think it is body mutilating and needs to be questioned on human rights and Hippocratic Oath grounds. I also think the name of the surgery is misleading - it is genital cosmetic surgery.

Of course the big worry in all this is children. I am increasingly angry at the hijacking of children that goes on in the name of "transactivism". Non gender conforming children are being used to argue that trans people are born not made. The vast majority of non gender conforming children go on to be gay or lesbian. Or at least they do if they are not co-opted into the adult trans movement and given puberty blockers and told they are trans.

There is a lot that needs to be discussed out in the open and the death threats and slurs such as TERF need to stop. Many of the transactivists that I have come across appear to have serious psychological issues and we cannot politely ignore that whilst changing laws for them and medically experimenting on minors in their name.

Chunderella · 31/05/2014 09:15

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Beachcomber · 31/05/2014 09:31

Forgot to say, for all the liberals and progressives out there. The co-opting of children into the trans movement must be exposed for the blatant homo and lesbo phobia that it clearly is.

We were all happy to leave behind the days when lesbianism and homosexuality were considered mental health issues and that gays and lesbians needed to 'be fixed' . Right? I means we were weren't we?

Well certain elements of transactivism are taking us right back there. Non gender conforming children do not need to 'be fixed'. They do not need their puberty interfered with with drugs (the point of which is to make it easier for them to 'pass' as trans adults and make genital cosmetic surgery easier). They do not need to be told they are trans and encouraged to have surgery as soon as legally possible. They do not need drugs which will affect their growth, sexual development and fertility (does that ring any homophobic/eugenic bells??). They do not need to be experimented on. All of the above amounts to a medical scandal and IMO, state sanctioned child abuse.

What gender non conforming children need is for society to relax ridiculous constructed rigid gender rules. Let children be children. Non gender conforming children need time and space and to be supported and listened to. They do not need drug happy and scalpel happy medics. And any child who wishes to cut off or mutilate their own genitals needs to be sensitively examined by an experienced professional to establish whether they are victims of sexual abuse and or bullying. It is not unusual for victims of childhood sexual abuse to wish to leave or disfigure the bodies the abuse happened in.

I know several non gender conforming lesbians who say that they would have been diagnosed as having "Gender identity disorder" when they were young and who are immensely glad that non gender conforming children were left alone to grow up gay in their day. There are a lot of gay people and lesbians in particular who want the T off the LGBT acronym as they object to the homophobia in much of the trans movement and do not want to be associated with it (obviously).

Gender is a social construction. Now it appears to have morphed into a medical disorder Hmm . It is no coincidence that countries such as Iran which have strict gender rules and roles and which are deeply homophobic have very high rates of Genital Reassignment Surgery. Men are not allowed to have sex with other men but they are allowed to redefine themselves as women and then have sex with other men.

calmet · 31/05/2014 09:55

LGBT really makes no sense. LGB is about sexual orientation. T is not. If you are Trans and LG or B, you are included.

I have heard some Trans people say they should be included in the LGB umbrella, because LGBT people have historically socialised in the same bars. They forget that historically LGBT people were all at the very margins of society and most bars wouldn't have them. Most LGB people had to hang out at bars where everyone at the margins of society hung out including prostituted women and petty criminals.

Stonewall in the UK lobbies for LGB people. It has been heavily criticised for not including Trans as a specific category it lobbies for, I think Stonewall have got it right.

CaptChaos · 31/05/2014 10:14

My ignorance about this subject seems to be bottomless, which is awful of me, given that one of the people I manage is FtoM trans*, so I should educate myself.

Are there any resources for me to read? and yes, I know, I'm being lazy in not looking for myself, but if someone could help?

It all seems so counter intuitive, but I know that intuition is just socialisation internalised, so...

BillnTedsMostFeministAdventure · 31/05/2014 10:25

"There are a lot of gay people and lesbians in particular who want the T off the LGBT acronym"

That is interesting.

Beachcomber · 31/05/2014 12:28

CaptChaos I don't know if it is out yet but Sheila Jeffrey's new book Gender Hurts: A Feminist Analysis of the Politics of Transgenderism is going to be a major work on the subject.

This chapter by her from another book will give you an idea of her position. Transgender Activism: A Lesbian Perspective

A couple of quotes from Jeffreys on the subject;

in order to support transgenderism , gender has to be supported. So the subordination of women has to be supported in order for transgenderism to be supported.

I don’t have a gender. I’ve no intention of having a gender. I don’t do masculinity which is the behavior of male dominance, and I don’t do femininity which is the behavior of female subordination, women’s subordination. I hope to engage in human behavior and I hope at some point in the future everybody will be able to do that too, but gender I definitely do not have. I am a conscientious objector to gender as I would be indeed to being drafted into the military

It depends what you are looking for. Jeffreys will give you the radical feminist analysis. If you are looking for writing from transgender people there are plenty of blogs.

When entering transgender politics you need to have it clear in your head what 'sex' and 'gender' mean to you. These two words are often used synonymously when in feminist analysis they mean completely different things. You also have to break away from the gender essentialist and deeply conservative idea that one's sex role equates to one's existence and or identity. This is hard to do because we are conditioned not to do that.

I don't know if you have read Jeffrey's book "Beauty and Misogyny" but it has some very good analysis of gender in it.

CaptChaos · 31/05/2014 13:24

That's brilliant, thanks Beach, I'll look out for them. I'll have a read if beauty and misogyny first though, as you suggest. I think I know what the difference is for me, but food for thought is always good. Really appreciate it Smile

calmet · 31/05/2014 13:40

Yes Sheila Jeffreys new book has been published. You could always request that your library orders it?

Beachcomber · 31/05/2014 13:53

You're welcome. You can download beauty and misogyny as a pdf

www.google.co.uk/search?q=beauty+and+misogyny+pdf&btnG=Search

CaptChaos · 31/05/2014 15:55

Thank you so much for that, Beach.

WhentheRed · 01/06/2014 17:24

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ballsballsballs · 01/06/2014 17:44

I'm at uni and one of the toilets was converted to unisex, so it can be used by anyone.

Anybody want to hazard a guess which toilets were opened up to everyone?

WhentheRed · 01/06/2014 17:48

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SabrinaMulhollandJjones · 01/06/2014 17:50

Excellent points, Red, and beach as always. I've noticed that 'prudery' is thrown at women a lot, as a way of sidelining or minimising women's issues.

I didn't know that those 2 girls in India were looking for a toilet. That is so heartbreaking.

ballsballsballs · 01/06/2014 17:53

One would have thought so Red.

calmet · 01/06/2014 17:56

Which university?

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