TERF

[ReallyFuckingFedUp]

So I have seen this expression a lot lately... and TERF gets thown out a lot when feminists are discussing things that are only capable of affecting biologically female women.

And I just can't get my head around it tbh. I don't think feminism should exclude people I think it helps everyone. I get really upset when white feminists forget about WOC or Lesbians, or other minority groups because the point of feminism is to make women's lives better. SO if there an issue that is unique to black women (for example) it is still all of our issue and should be dealt with by all feminist.

So if trans women want in on feminism why do they think can exclude the majority of women by saying we can't discuss our issues? And if trans people want to be accepted and have their rights championed by feminism is that fair since the majority of feminists aren't also suffering those same problems? Is it not a huge double standard?

Abortion rights and prenatal care and contraceptive health, vaginal rape. Are these things off the table now for feminism?

Am I getting it wrong, missing something? It feels to me like male privilege, telling women what they can and can't talk about..and doing so in a way where they actually feel guilty as though they have done something wrong.

I highly recommend this article on FTM transitioning by Sheila Jeffreys.

FTM transsexualism and Grief

I am so conflicted about this.

Essentially the radical feminist view seems to be to be correct and important, from a rational perspective.

YET

I have a MtF trans relative and she has written so clearly about an absolute internal sense of gender, from a very early age. It seems so arrogant to contest this - yes there may very well be people who do not have absolute internal gender - they may even be a majority. But it seems wrong for me to say that "it isn't real" about anyone else's experiences.

I think where I have to come out the other side of this, and it is uncomfortable for me to do so, is that: in general, intellectually and politically (though not personally or socially) I just don't really care about that small vocal minority of trans women. This feels wrong because in so many other cases it absolutely flies in the face of what I believe, to say that a minority don't matter because they are in a minority. So I feel very conflicted saying this, but this, for now, is where I come out, because

I feel that the way that trans discourse is inflected seems to reinforce damaging notions of strictly, sometimes almost parodically performed reactionary gender;

I think this is ultimately harmful to women and girls above all, and women and girls are whom I am primarily concerned with;

I think that there is a deep philosophical and political untruth in conflating a refusal to perform society's expectations of you on the grounds of your assigned sex and gender (hurray!) and feeling a "right" to appropriate woman-hood as a born male (get lost);

I feel this personally (as well as politically and philosophically) because my personal experience of trans women is that they have reaped the social and material benefits of being male for so long, and internalised that sense of being of the ruling class (as well as the actual material benefits that accrue to ambitious men in the work place who do not have to deal with sexism) to the extent that I feel very little in common with them. Here I am definitely on a sticky wicket politically as you can't base things on "be decent to people that queenmab feels affinity to". I recognise this;

Recognising this is what makes me doubt my position so intensely - am I just saying "I am not comfortable with this", and what has that to do with justice?;

The other logical problem I have with this is that, for instance, on gay marriage, I feel that people who object to it on the basis that it weakens the whole notion of marriage are a bit bonkers. I accept that if you hold certain religious (for instance) beliefs, you will not consider two people of the same sex to be genuinely married; but I do not get how this weakens that person's sense of "real" marriage. Here I seem to be taking the opposite view in that I am attaching a real importance to the precision and integrity of the category of "woman", and throwing in a bunch of people who don't feel they belong in "men" does have a harmful impact on the category. I need help with this idea;

It feels very unkind not to be hospitable to people who are so vulnerable to abuse and violence etc. That is my big emotional problem with this. I feel guilty, essentially. I think I feel a need to be personally as kind to everyone as I can be and yet to separate this from my view that all who may legally be called trans women are not necessarily in all senses of the word women, on a philosophical and political basis.

Phew, I am still in a muddle but feel better for putting all that down.

I understand what you are saying about the definition of women. The reality is that years ago when a tiny number of men were saying they wanted to transition to women, this was a side issue. Most of these MtoF's had full surgery, and then tried to quietly get on with their lives. These are the classic transsexuals.

I think their feelinsg are real, I think their interpretation of what these feelings mean is wrong. But they largely got on with their lives and caused no harm to anyone.

In the last two decades there has been a struggle between transsexuals, and a new type of person calling themselves transgender. A struggle transsexuals have lost. Transsexualism was very narrowly identified, so only a small number of people were ever going to meet the criteria, and it was virtually all men. Now the Trans umbrella has widened to encompass auto gynophiliacs, MtoF who "identify" as a woman but don't want surgery, and a variety of others who are simply gender non conforming.

Now a significant number of those who are "identifying" as women, don't just want to get on with their lives, they also want everyone else including strangers, to recognise they are women. So you get situations where a MtoF with a penis wants to be able to use a women's changing room. It isn't about often about practicalities, because a separate changing room e.g. family room, will be rejected. The purpose is to get others to recognise them as a woman. This is where the issues arise, because it conflicts with the needs of women.

The second issue is about FtoM transitioning. We have very quickly went from a position were this was rare, to becoming more commonplace in lesbian communities. And unsurprisingly this is alarming to many feminists.

The third issue is "Trans" children. There is a big difference between an adult in their 20's deciding they are Trans, and parents deciding their 6 year old is Trans. That is a very alarming development and not one we should ignore. I think this is the kind of thing future generations will look back at and think WTF were we thinking.

I have a MtF trans relative and she has written so clearly about an absolute internal sense of gender, from a very early age. It seems so arrogant to contest this - yes there may very well be people who do not have absolute internal gender - they may even be a majority. But it seems wrong for me to say that "it isn't real" about anyone else's experiences.

allhailqueenmab, what you say here, IMO, highlights the pernicious difference between transsexualism and transgenderism.

Pre post moderism and queer theory, a person like your relative who struggled with 'feeling like a woman in a man's body' would take on feminine dress, take synthetic sex hormones and possibly have a 'sex change operation'. And sometimes that would make the person feel better. Ok, good that the person felt better and it isn't that big a deal if they want to 'live as a woman'. The person would be called 'a transexual' and it would be taken as said that they were a male person who imitated women/lived as a woman in order to feel better in themselves. Hormones, dress, make up, trappings of femininity would help with this attempt to 'live as a woman'. It was clear to everybody that an attempt was being made to change sex with the crude tools available - surgery, hormones, dress, etc.

It was generally accepted that you cannot actually change sex and that the crude attempt made a person feel better and more at peace with themselves, but it didn't make them actually of the other sex. Male to female transsexuals couldn't menstruate, get pregnant, didn't have ovaries, uteri and vaginas, etc so it was pretty obvious that they weren't biological females - they were transsexuals living as women.

Then, in steps GENDER. The most fundamentally patriarchal concept known to woman and man. And in steps, QUEER THEORY and POST MODERNISM. And transsexualism got a face lift - how old fashioned and boring to talk about biology and reality and sex! How essentialist! None of those concrete things matter anymore because we have gender, identity politics, agency, choice, individualism and a whole ton of bullshit about inner identity trumping physical reality to the extent that if you decide you are a woman, that makes you an actual biological female.

Enter 'transgenderism' - a concept based on a social construction i.e. something that is made up . Gender itself is not real. It is an idea, a concept, an abstraction. Gender roles exist, the gender hierarchy exists, gender stereotypes exist but gender itself is utterly made up.

Gender does not trump sex. Because sex exists and gender doesn't.

If gender trumped sex I could disappear female oppression in the snap of a finger - females would just have to declare themselves as masculine and we would never be oppressed, raped, sold, abused, controlled and subjugated due to our sex ever again. Awesome!

Except it isn't real. Gender isn't real so we cannot disappear female oppression via queering gender.

However we are supposed to accept that when men queer gender that makes them female. That makes them the same as biological females. That makes them actual females. Because, gender.

Because gender (which doesn't exist) trumps sex, trumps reality, trumps rational thinking. And, most importantly, the patriarchal notion of gender trumps the biological reality of sex only when it suits patriarchy. Gender does not trump sex when it comes to oppressing females. A female who rejects gender will still be oppressed due to her sex. Which sounds like women not having their cake and not eating it, whilst men get to have their cake and eat it, doesn't it?

But women must accept the above because it is nasty and transphobic not to. We must accept that gender trumps sex except when it doesn't. We must accept that gender trumps sex when it comes to transgenderism but it doesn't when it comes to female oppression.

So while radical feminists can have sympathy with the idea of transsexualism and feeling you are in the wrong body, we call bullshit on gender; and therefore on transgendrism. Feeling like your penis is female does not make it so. Feeling like a neovagina is a vagina does not make it so. Feeling like a neovagina is a vagina does not make it so. Feeling like you have the right to enter female safe spaces because you think that your penis is female or your neovagina makes you female, and that females must accept your 'inner gender identity' (even females who argue that gender doesn't exist) makes you a gaslighting misogynist.

I support lesbian and gay people getting married. But actually I agree that that does erode the acceptance of what a Christian marriage traditionally meant. I am happy with that erosion, but I can see the point of view of those who are not.

X posts with calmet who managed to say the same thing in a third of the words!

This is key - Now a significant number of those who are "identifying" as women, don't just want to get on with their lives, they also want everyone else including strangers, to recognise they are women.

We all have to join in whether we think it is a fantasy or not and when we try to cling to reality for the sake of our own sanity, safety and rights we are bigoted, transphobic, etc. (Hence TERF)

Transsexualism has been hijacked.

Excellent post, Beachcomber.

Still have nothing useful to add but am learning so much, thanks all

Thanks. Loving the clarity from Beachcomber and Calmet.

One thing that I am curious about is the numbers involved here... what sort of numbers of people fall into each category?

It feels like there is a frivolity and disrespect in seeing womanhood as a state primarily associated with sexual fulfillment, whereas for some of us there is still a struggle to associate womanhood with humanity, bodily autonomy and even physical survival.

The other logical problem I have with this is that, for instance, on gay marriage, I feel that people who object to it on the basis that it weakens the whole notion of marriage are a bit bonkers. I accept that if you hold certain religious (for instance) beliefs, you will not consider two people of the same sex to be genuinely married; but I do not get how this weakens that person's sense of "real" marriage. Here I seem to be taking the opposite view in that I am attaching a real importance to the precision and integrity of the category of "woman", and throwing in a bunch of people who don't feel they belong in "men" does have a harmful impact on the category. I need help with this idea;

The traditional idea of marriage has changed. People divorce, women aren't forced to marry (in the west anyway well not often), families don't get paid off, you don't get to marry a woman as a punishment for having raped her. Marriage has evolved. It hasn't hurt anyone who chose to take on the traditional vows and meaning if gay people also get married. It doesn't affect them anyway. It might affect other people's views of marriage, but yoru marriage isn't affected.

If we accept MtF as women it doesn't just change the "idea" of something like marriage it changes what we biologically are and unlike the hetero married couple who remain unaffected by someone else's marriage... the woman who has the MtF lesbian in her prison room actually has to deal with the consequences.

Gay people aren't forcing heterosexual people to marry them

I have a MtF trans relative and she has written so clearly about an absolute internal sense of gender, from a very early age. It seems so arrogant to contest this - yes there may very well be people who do not have absolute internal gender - they may even be a majority. But it seems wrong for me to say that "it isn't real" about anyone else's experiences.

If I read more about trans people being desperately sad that they knew they had always wanted to bear children, for example... I would find it desperately sad...and could empathize, but would still see it as a kind of body dysmorphia.

But generally (especially with regards to children) it's always completely shallow reasons that are nothing to do with sex.. Like a child liking their hair a certain length or being a "tom boy" or a little boy in to tutus who thinks padded bras are cute.. but none of those things are "real". They have nothing to do with being a woman or a man.

To me it would be likt giving a teenager with annorexia liposuction because she sees herself as fat when we all know she isn't

Oh actually, what they all said, just not as well said

I have an older friend who is a MtoF. They are quite clear that as a young adult they were gay and were gender non conforming. Their role model was David Bowie. But as time went on, it just became too hard to continue to be a gender non conforming gay man, and transition started to look easier. This person thinks the idea that trans women are just like women, is rubbish and agrees with Janice Raymond in The Transsexual Empire, but was just trying to find a way to live their life and be happy.

I wish patriarchy didn't exist so individuals like this could just be themselves, without transitioning. But this kind of person does no harm to women or feminism.

One of the damaging things, is how so many MtoF's are in a position of status and power in women's organisations.

I once heard someone say, and I agree, that if you wanted to destroy the feminist movement, you couldn't create a better bomb to do it, than the idea of trans women are women.

Like a child liking their hair a certain length

This is just so fhfghghgh. Girls with short hair? Unheard of!!

gender conforming.

calmet I agree someone like that doesn't harm feminism, and is really just trying to get on with life in a way they feel comfortable.

At the risk of being what about the menz... I do think the patriarchy hurts men who don't conform to the gender binary more than it hurts women who don't.. I can go out in dh's clothes (and basically do) but if dh were to dare wear a dress everyone would look. Although I do think that's only because being a woman is looked down upon

I agree RFFU. Quentin Crisp was a great example of a gay man who was very gender non conforming. But he got a lot of hassle for it. Not everyone is strong enough to stand out in that way, or wants the hassle.

Although Eddie Izzard is another good role model of a Het gender non conforming man.

abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2012/11/transgender-student-in-womens-locker-room-raises-uproar/

a penis is a women's body part
really?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amelia_Bloomer

look at the shit women took for wearing practical clothes

Another thing.

Thanks Beach, another few lightbulb moments there, thank you.

I naively believed that transgender was the same as transsexual. It really isn't though, is it? Gender isn't the same as sex, and it it dangerous to conflate the two.

Apologies, I have not read the whole thread, but as a feminist trying to change a strongly patriarchal system from the inside in a secretive and under the radar way, I would deeply appreciate a comprehensive lexicon of the acronyms and neologisms spotted on a speedy scroll through the first couple of pages.
You have my deep thanks. Education is power.

Transgender is an umbrella term and nobody really agrees who should be encompassed by it. For example I have seen some Trans people and allies arguing that camp gay men and "butch" lesbians are transgendered.

the inside in a secretive and under the radar way,

Which ones would you like translating?

TERF is trans exclusive radical feminist.

And TERF is an insult used against radical feminists.

Transgender is an umbrella term and nobody really agrees who should be encompassed by it. For example I have seen some Trans people and allies arguing that camp gay men and "butch" lesbians are transgendered.

I would have 100 percent been called transgendered as a teen by those standards. And dd as well, it's a real fucking concern for me tbh that dd could get labeled that way and she's not even 4