Not all men

[AskBasil]

Interesting article here

That's good to know, maybe more men will post.

Also to any of the men posting can you not see how oxymoronic it is to say you support women's autonomy and right to self determination, but then tell them they should present that to you a certain way?

^I guess the take home message is that if you are more offended by the words feminists use than you are the things about which they are speaking, you have no right to perceive yourself as an ally.

If the contribution you are burning to make relates to how feminists can change their words or their behaviour in order to make men feel more comfortable, you have no right to perceive yourself as an ally^

yy exactly Buffy

Well I didn't explicitly say that or think it when I wrote it, but it certainly follows, so well said Buffy.

Well said Buffy.

well said Buffy

I have a nasty cold so it has taken me two days to read this thread in between sleeping.

Kim, hope you are ok.

And yes to the words bbeing less objectionable than what they are describing..

King, there aren't a lot of self identified, regular male posters on MN anyway - PRH, for example, more or less posts only on education and legal threads- so the fact there are few among the relatively few FWR "regulars" isn't a big surprise. Whatever language is used.

I agree when about the conscious raising. I also agree that it's pretty pointless to post on the Guardian comments section, in fact I can barely stand to read the comments. I don't think it's all Daily Mail readers trolling, liberal and lefty men are just as bad at feminism as right wingers.

liberal and lefty men are just as bad

Oi, I resemble that comment, although my left leanings are probably more left than many!

Anyway, more seriously. RE: Buffy's point about not posting that regularly, I suppose part of it is that I'm a bit uncomfortable just with a "yep" or "I agree" type post. In normal conversation it is a bit superfluous as non verbal communication fulfils this role and as has been said it isn't socialised into the machismo culture to generate regular 'reinforcement' type responses.

Secondly, and probably a more important reason from my perspective is that the need for a women only space in both RL and in the virtual world is something I recognise and I suppose, despite never having been explicitly told, I view FWR as a similar space. When I do post I feel a bit of a trespasser (but worse) although I know this is probably a personally generated feeling, rather than a result of other posters comments.

Just thought I should explain my reasoning (even if it isn't particularly rational).

Damn my lack of smileys!

NALM?

Buffy, no lecture recording round our way thank fuck

Keepit, you may well object to the liberal and lefty men comment, but your objection should be to the liberal and lefty men who post sexist shit on the Guardian website.

Oh I'd definitely get quite grumpy if someone on a FWR thread mistook me for a liberal lefty man.

Yay! At last I've caught up with this thread! And I reckon it turned out to be the biggest one I've ever posted.

That turned out to be an interesting discussion, though mostly derail tbh. So what I've learned is:

Said by men, the NAM thing is a lack of recognition of the legitimacy of class analysis when talking about men and women. Also a protection of personal feelings over honest analysis?

Said by women - what? Has that been addressed yet, we're not at 1000 posts yet. A determined effort to hang on to the Not My Nigel ideal? Denial? Hope? Optimism? Desperation?

(If I start a thread about Not My Nigel, I bet it won't be this long...)

Yay you're back! I was wondering if we'd fill it up before you got back to it.

I think said by women, it's manpleasing, basically. NMN on a wider scale. Although NMN seems to be said more often by women who would not call themselves feminists and rarely used by feminists, whereas there are feminists who say NAM. Does that make sense?

Basil! Dude!

Man pleasing yes.

We have to make clear that we're not nasty man-hating feminists, we love men, we like them, it's only those others over there, who no-one likes, who we don't like.

The woman who leaked Sexist Scudamore's e-mails was on PM today protesting that she's not a militant feminist, she just wants fairness.

Must make sure we don't upset the menz. Even when they are calling us gash, reducing us to a contemptuous word for our sexual parts, we're not allowed to be militant or angry about it.

Because not all men call us gash.

I think that the PA in question is in an awful position. She's getting a tougher time than Scudamore in many ways.

It makes me cringe when a woman says "I love men" I mean, really? All men? Not just some?

LOL FF.

Yes she's been threatened. They're trying to pretend it was his private e-mail account and she had no right to access it.

Wankers. Some wankers.