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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Not all men

999 replies

AskBasil · 16/05/2014 22:20

Interesting article here

OP posts:
kinsorange · 19/05/2014 17:41

I did have another point which has been going round my head.
I think it was LRS that said something like men are violent, or most men are violent. Something like that.

Do you mean "has the ability to be violent" or are violent once a week, or simmer with violence but dont generally do it,or what?

BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 19/05/2014 17:48

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LRDtheFeministDragon · 19/05/2014 17:49

kins - yes, loads of women feel like that. We've acknowledged it before, I think? I think it is perfectly normal and understandable, not something to feel bad about.

FairPhyllis · 19/05/2014 18:10

What we do about it and how men can engage in improving things is what I am interested in.

Listen to women. Believe what they say about how the world is for them. Don't try to police their language.

Recognise that sometimes you, like all men, unavoidably participate in and benefit from propping up a system of male supremacy. Recognise that you have to keep working against your own socialisation if you want to improve things.

Then talk to men. Challenge them on their sexism and abuse of women wherever you see it, however hard it is for you to do that.

BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 19/05/2014 18:12

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Beachcomber · 19/05/2014 18:17

Men who really want to help the women's rights movement need to concentrate on men. Most usually starting with themselves and then working up to calling out the sexism and misogyny of others.

They also need to recognize the scale of misogyny and stop pretending that it is only a minority of men who perpetuate sexism, exploit women, act violently towards women, benefit from the violence of other men towards women, etc.

If men put their minds to it we could have this whole sorry mess sorted out in a couple of generations. There is very little that women can actually do and expecting us to do the heavy lifting to sort out the human rights mess created by men is pretty damn outrageous (but par for the course).

Talking down to us and policing our tone whilst we discuss how badly men as a class behave towards women as a class doesn't help.

CaptChaos · 19/05/2014 18:43

Oh, and stop telling women that they need to sort men's shit out as well. You want something to happen for the good of the world? Organise it! We have enough to deal with without having to deal with your stuff as well.

Dervel · 19/05/2014 18:55

ManWithNoName first of I utterly reject your position as being someone who can even ask that question of me. You are not judge or arbiter of what contributes to a cause. Beyond merely having an opinion.

What I will say to paraphrase Ghandi: what I do is ultimately insignificant, but it is very important that I do it. What we can do is sometimes simply get out of the way, and not obstruct what is inevitable change for the better.

CaptChaos · 19/05/2014 19:08

Derval thank you, you have reminded me of another Ghandi quote, which seems apropos given what feminists face online right now....

First they laugh at you, then they ignore you, then they fight with you, then you win.

Men have laughed at us,
They have ignored us,
They are fighting us right now,
Maybe next, we win!

kim147 · 19/05/2014 19:23

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CaptChaos · 19/05/2014 19:29

How are you doing today Kim?

kim147 · 19/05/2014 19:46

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BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 19/05/2014 19:52

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Beachcomber · 19/05/2014 20:04

Given the topic perhaps a quote from a woman is appropriate.

“The essence of oppression is that one is defined from the outside by those who define themselves as superior by criteria of their own choice.”
? Andrea Dworkin

And this one which incisively points out that women being awarded equal pay (as in actually getting it not just having the idea enshrined in law whilst being made a mockery of and devalued in reality) constitutes a revolution.

"Feminists know that if women are paid equal wages for equal work, women will gain sexual as well as economic independence. But feminists have refused to face the fact that in a woman-hating social system, women will never be paid equal wages. Men in all their institutions of power are sustained by the sex labor and sexual subordination of women. The sex labor of women must be maintained; and systematic low wages for sex-neutral work effectively force women to sell sex to survive. The economic system that pays women lower wages than it pays men actually punishes women for working outside marriage or prostitution, since women work hard for low wages and still must sell sex. The economic system that punishes women for working outside the bedroom by paying low wages contributes significantly to women's perception that the sexual serving of men is a necessary part of any woman's life: or how else could she live? Feminists appear to think that equal pay for equal work is a simple reform, whereas it no reform at all; it is revolution. Feminists have refused to face the fact that equal pay for equal work is impossible as long as men rule women, and right-wing women have refused to forget it.”
? Andrea Dworkin

BillAndTedsMostFeministAdventu · 19/05/2014 20:07

ManWith - I believe The Fabian Society, the 30% Club, Women on Boards and various other groups press for equal pay and equal consideration for high profile jobs. I'm sure there are others. Have you been in touch with them?

LRDtheFeministDragon · 19/05/2014 20:14

beach - good thought.

'Let us not be trapped by an analysis stil encumbered with the old automatisms. It's not to be feared that language conceals an invincible aversary, because it's the language of men and their grammar.'

Helene Cixous.

ManWithNoName · 19/05/2014 20:20

Dervel - I was just asking what you actively do because you seem a bit more involved in this issue. I guess though from your answer you don't do much more than me. I wasn't judging - there is nothing to judge.

Buffy - I am happy to sign the page 3 petition. Is it online? Do you have a link?

BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 19/05/2014 20:23

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Beachcomber · 19/05/2014 20:30

That's a good one LRD.

Let's face it, we must know that liberation is hardly round the corner whilst men are still dictating to us under what terms we are allowed to pipe up about the way women and girls are treated by men in this world....

ManWithNoName · 19/05/2014 20:32

BillAndTeds - yes I am quite actively involved with the Women on Boards Campaign. The 30% Club idea I support but can't be a member because I am not a Chairman or CEO. I am a shareholder in many companies and am an actively engaged in all areas of corporate governance though my shareholdings are relatively small compared to big institutions who passively support existing male dominated Boards.

One day women will be 50% of Boards and I think we should have legislation that mandates that as target by 2025. It could be done.

LRDtheFeministDragon · 19/05/2014 20:33

I've just read it. Smile

I find it worrying so many people acknowledge things are going badly wrong - but somehow don't know what to do, because we're so clear it must be that we're nearly equal.

BillAndTedsMostFeministAdventu · 19/05/2014 20:38

That's good - so the language of feminism hasn't put you off feminist campaigns after all.

I shall look out for you at a WOB meeting.

ManWithNoName · 19/05/2014 20:48

Buffy - thank you. I signed it.

ManWithNoName · 19/05/2014 20:58

BillAndTeds - no not put off. I am just questioning how some feminists choose to conveys the message - not the message.

BillAndTedsMostFeministAdventu · 19/05/2014 21:01

Ok then. You weren't put off. Why do you think other men will be?