Not all men

[AskBasil]

Interesting article here

Yes. And for anything to be achieved in real terms, part of that focus must be allowing women to express their experience of male oppression without the constant policing of our tone.

The foundation of the problem of lack of equal pay is men's attitudes, historical and current, to women; and the status that men award themselves and withhold from women.

Or what Dervel said. Lack of equal pay does not exist in a vacuum. It exists with a context and that context is male supremacist society.

If you want to concentrate on equal pay then go for it. As I women I prefer to concentrate on the wider and more far reaching issue of the feminisation of poverty but in order to do that I need to be able to speak about the various ways in which men control and exploit women without men pushing in to the discussion to constantly tell women how unfair it is for women to talk about the various ways in which men control and exploit women.

As a woman I prefer to....

Buffy - equal pay is just an area that I know more about than say DV or rape. I'm not telling anyone or organising anyone. Its just an example of what could be done and how men could get involved in campaigning on an issue that affects women.

On NAMALT. If you keep on blaming all men for what a minority of men do then ALL men will eventually switch off.

I don't have to read FWR boards you know.

Sorry ManWithNoName not ALL men will switch off. I for one won't.

RiaOverTheRainbow - I think that is the long and the short of it.

The movement for Women's Rights is incredibly non-violent, peaceful and polite considering what is at stake and the outrageous levels of male violence against women. They really have done a good job on us what with the constant underlying threat of violence and the socialization of women to know their place and expend so much of their energy on making sure that the men are just dandy.

Buffy, I think ManWithNoName doesn't understand the mechanisms of oppression given what he says here - If you keep on blaming all men for what a minority of men do then ALL men will eventually switch off.

No, all men won't switch off.

And, forgive me for asking a silly question, but why do you think we'd mind if they did?

I accept there are huge and important positives to having men who are committed to equality, to feminism.

But, along with them, come all the other men who are not simply 'switched off,' but who are passionate about feminism and want to destroy it. F4J, for example.

I have to admit, and I hope this isn't offensive to 'switched on' men, that I suspect for many feminists, the total effect of all men 'switching off' feminism would not be quite as devastating as you seem to imagine.

I think some of the resistance to toning down language to appease or appeal to men shown by some feminists could be a reaction to an assumption that it must be a new idea to these feminists. On the contrary, I think they have probably tried it ad nauseum already and their own experiences have shown them that it has got them precisely nowhere. I know it hasn't made a difference worth having when I've tried it.

It reminds me of debates about prostitution, in which feminists' opposition is often assumed to come from ignorance, when it is actually more likely to come from an all-too-depressing detailed knowledge of how and why women are oppressed.

ManWithNoName sorry I just couldn't resist that wiseass ironic subversion of the thread title. In all seriousness I would have sounded not dissimilar to yourself several years ago. You mentioned you are not familiar with the issues surrounding rape and violence, I promise you you'll have at least an inkling if you listen here more than you speak.

Obviously you'll have to take it on faith, but if you're willing to give me the benefit of the doubt I read a lot more on here than I post..

YY, agree with that, vesuvia.

I remember being at a conference organised by Gail Dines and Julia Long - who I think have something like 40-50 years experience of feminist research and activism - and at one point, a woman in her early 20s stood up to say that really felt that the problem was, we were none of us being polite enough, and if we only said things more nicely, it'd work better.

I felt for her, because she was in a minority and it can't have been easy to stand up and say that - but it also made me recognise the depth to which we've internalised the 'catch more flies with honey, ladies' conditioning. She would never have stood up and told two men with similar experience and knowledge to express themselves more 'nicely'. She just wouldn't.

That's a fair point.

I'll stick my hand up too, I've done this one too, absolutely.

I think watering down the messages of feminism to make them more palatable to anti-equalists is how we ended up with the weak choosey choice type of feminism in the first place. Feminism doesn't need the support of absolutely everyone to create change, those who aren't on board will just be left behind while everyone else moves on.

They were very good, IIRC. They mainly left it to the audience to respond, and there were a couple of slightly arsey comments but also a lot of 'well, it doesn't really work like that ...' ones.

Dervel - I read a lot more than I post here too. I've been here for many years.

What do you do to practically support the aims of feminism? I mean apart from reading and listening?

I'm willing to engage in the intellectual debate but I generally don't. I don't think the FWR board needs me and other men popping up on it saying 'ooohh yes I agree with you all' every five minutes. It adds nothing. It goes without saying that any sensible human being agrees women get a very bad deal from men.

What we do about it and how men can engage in improving things is what I am interested in.

What we do about it and how men can engage in improving things is what I am interested in.

• Be supportive - accept that women may be right, and you may be wrong, or that women may be expressing things in a valid way, even if it's not your way.

• If you come across an unfamiliar bit of feminist terminology or thought, have a quick google. You may need to ask someone anyway, but try that first. Eg., a quick google could have helped you out with the distinction between 'generalisation' and 'class analysis'.

• Try to think how you can put a point of view, without coming across as silencing or appropriative of authority. This is actually really hard to do if you're not used to it, so you will possibly need to study how women manage it (we're socialised to do it, though personally I'm not great at it!).

• If you can think of something that needs doing (fundraising, a campaign, whatever), have a quiet behind-the-scenes attempt to see if there's an existing feminist campaign you could offer support to, or if your own campaign is viable. Then, you can ask for help in a targeted way that won't waste anyone's time.

_ Er ... can't think of others right now, but I'm sure there are more.

Ooh! And another one, very specific to MN FWR and not everyone's cup of tea, but worth considering:

Don't namechange. Even if you're really embarrassed how you came across in this debate or that thread. Because FWR is such a huge target for persistent male trolls, if you stay under one name you 1) give us the chance to say 'wait a moment, this is manwith, I know you think he's very wrong here but he was making good sense on that other thread, he's been around for years' and 2) stops us from having to worry 'is this unfamiliar name another troll I will spend time and patience on, only to find it posts something triggering and horrible once I get sucked in?'

"What are you going to do about those industries claiming AMALT?"

WhenTheRed, I love this.

I am trying to take an overview here, as too many indivual points for me to want or realistivcally expect to catch up on. Appologise for typos, am a bit tired.

Just to get a couple of points.
Feminism as a movement is nowadays not much interested in getting men over to the cause/movement/whatever, but wants more women on board.

So the op and this thread is saying that no, we wont use "some men" instead of "men". "Men" works better and is working.

I want to say something about me now. I am a woman.
For me, feminism comes after quite a lot of other things in my life. You may find that sad, but it is my reality [and I suspect millions of others]. Not even sure why I am saying it exactly, but I suppose my point is, that, for me., posting on the occasion thread, is my contribution to feminism. And, porbably realistically, the only contribution it is going to get.