Not all men

[AskBasil]

Interesting article here

Be excellent to each other.

I've never seen Bill & Ted.

This is the first time I've considered that a disadvantage

Cunt, I would just like to say what Totally Excellent barrelling

Welcome to FWR!

I do think there is a conversation to be had about engaging men with feminism but a) I believe it's a conversation we all of us have, every day, and in every interaction we have with the men in our lives and b) I don't belive it's best served by pretending men-as-a-class don't oppress women, because to do so is to negate everything we know through bitter experience to be true. So I believe it's perhaps a less 'meaningful' conversation than some people would like it to be, as it does not produce the kind of conflict that Some Men believe they would win.

I dare say that's why NAM cuts at the heart of feminist experience, because it is positioned as a gesture that makes our lives' work meaningless. Which we know it's not, measured in the material successes we've had, and the changes the world had undergone.

And/or I am being a bit wussy.

Oh, Snatch, thank you!

But larry, no one does think men are the only class?

Class analysis started out looking at economic disparities, not gendered ones.

The salient point in each instance of class analysis is that you are using it to reveal the power structure you believe to be inherent in society.

lemonmuffin1: "What you term as 'you guys' is 52% of the population"

Im sorry but I don't believe that's true. What I meant by 'you guys' is you feminists.

Ah "you feminists". What a terrible insult. I am wounded. Wounded!

Lemonmuffin1 what is your position on feminism? Do you believe that women are entitled to full equal rights with men?

It's Bill and Ted rules now, Buffy.

Then shouldn 't it be "you dudes"?

Most excellent X-post Buffy

It is!

Oh hang on, someone asked for FloraFox's 'fuck off' comments to be deleted? I would like to clarify, it certainly wasn't me. I don't understand how that happened, unless it was in an attempt to make this thread look more contentious than it is? MN??

Truly bodacious.

'Lemonmuffin1 what is your position on feminism? Do you believe that women are entitled to full equal rights with men?

Of course I do, who wouldnt?

I just think you need to give women who slightly disagree with you a bit of a break. And listen to their point of view instead of shouting them down.

Actually, there is a lot of consensus on this thread, just not with Kim or Larry. There is some difference of opinion amongst the rest, but none us have fallen out, lemon. What are you trying to say?

what do you mean by 'amongst the rest'

I don't want to shout anyone down, honestly. However, from my (have read a lot, listened a lot, watched a lot, learned a lot, over several decades) perspective, anyone who does actually is a feminist.

And I don't really know anyone who's gone through that process who hasn't concluded (sometimes reluctantly) that, if they believe women are entitled to full equality with men, and have not yet achieved that, they are a feminist. So I was trying to establish where you were coming from, to be honest.

I would be interested in reading why you have concluded differently, but I feel in the interests of honesty I should point out I am going to bed now.

Oh dear. I thought about putting (only kidding) in the posts but I thought, nah, surely no-one...