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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

privilege and prostitution

282 replies

ezinma · 26/03/2014 15:15

Appearing in my social media today is one of those sharp and sassy thoughts for the day that I’m invited to approve by sharing. Where better to share it than here:

So, you are against prostitution. But you're an attractive person with a boyfriend. Who I assume you have sex with. That gives you privilege. Some people aren't so lucky. The only way they can get laid is by paying for it. Why do you think you have the right to experience one of life's fundamental experiences and others don't?

It’s from tumblr so we ought to make some allowances. Let’s, if we may, overlook the fact that I am a middle-aged frump with a civil partner; the debatable contention that sex, in and of itself, is one of life’s fundamental experiences; the erasure of women who aren’t “lucky” enough to have a boyfriend and whose right to A Fundamental Experience presumably requires them to seduce a partner using skills that cannot be withdrawn from a bank machine; and the regrettable (though now unavoidable) misuse of ‘privilege’ to refer to any old scenario where one group of people has a little bit more access to something than another group does. (Have I missed anything?)

What remains is the daring suggestion that a woman might be against prostitution because she is attractive. Since it's already well established that we fat old frumps are against prostitution — no glamorous john would waste his beer money on buying our flabby arses, and we are bitter about it! — then I’m left with only one conclusion: a woman’s attractiveness has no influence on her opinions about prostitution.

A lightbulb moment for me. Thanks, tumblr. Hmm

OP posts:
Bifauxnen · 26/03/2014 22:22

"I want to buy women, this is the most important thing, everything else must be dismissed or derided as illogical. Caring about the rapes, the violence, both to individual women and women as a class and the warping of the humanity of men who are allowed to believe that women are things to be bought, all of this is just illogical and emotional thinking. What my penis what's is objectively the right thing and any opinion that recognises the humanity of women is purely subjective."

Have I got it right cos it doesn't really seem an unemotional, rational and logical argument to me. It sounds like the tantrum of some over-entitled little emperor who has let the emotions of his penis override all rationality.

I agree with the suggestion on a previous thread. Punters should have to put in some hours on the job before they are allowed to buy 'services'. Actually, I would have no problem with prostitution if the punters just hired each other. They have common interests and views so know what to expect and won't complain, and could make some extra cash by bringing a 'great experience' to other unfortunate souls. Surely they wouldn't object to giving something back to the community.

ok, I had more to say than I thought Blush ... rant over

ezinma · 26/03/2014 22:28

I'm miles behind here, catching up with some fine wit and some, um, not so fine.

another patriarchal stance of anti-prostitution activists is that women can't decide for themselves. "My body, my choice"? Forget about it!

Here’s the thing about that. Let’s imagine, for a second, I have decided that my vocation is to be a sex worker. I’m not in a wheelchair any more, but I do sometimes walk with a stick. Because of the meds I’m taking, and the changes to my health and lifestyle that stem from being ill, my body is a bit of a mess. I’m not getting any younger. Realistically, the only people who would pay to have sex with me are those who would want to fetishise some part of my non-normativity (and expect me to play along with it), which is not the kind of sex I want. ‘My body, my choice’? No. It’s the punters who get to choose which types of bodies they want to pay for.

Those punters are almost all men, so the ‘market’ for bodies (and the ‘services’ they offer) is determined by male fantasy. This is why sex work is not just work. It doesn’t matter how good or skilled or charming I am; if I’m offering exactly the same ‘services’ as a beautiful 18-year-old girl, it would take me months to earn what she could earn in a few days. A black woman or a transwoman my age might earn even less than me. Our bodies, men’s choices. If a supermarket dared to pay a teenager twice as much as it paid me for doing the same job, I would sue. And win.

The sex worker’s agency — the range of ‘choices’ s/he has — is restricted in other ways too. How many punters can he turn down without falling behind on his student loan repayments? Maybe if she agrees to the types of sex that have a higher market value — generally those that are more painful, dangerous and degrading to her — she can see fewer clients, giving her more time to write her thesis? Sex workers might be ‘happy’ to “decide these things for themselves”, but we can’t pretend they are decided with the same degree of agency, or that the constraints are comparable, as when the punter is choosing the ‘profile’ of the person he wants to pay for sex. And there are a great number of sex workers — a few, like the fictional me, who have chosen the profession; many more who have not — who do not get a chance to make any choices at all.

This brings me back to the other topic in the thread title: privilege. A sex worker’s agency is absolutely contingent on where his or her body ranks in the hierarchy of men’s fantasies, and the degree to which s/he is willing or able to perform the kind of ‘services’ that men want to buy. An ambivalent kind of ‘privilege’ is conferred on such a person if she is young, female, able-bodied, normatively attractive, kinky, doing a PhD, etc. But only because — and for as long as — she conforms to male desire, to the basic power of the punter’s wallet.

What struck me about the tumblr quote is this. It argued (wrongly, in my opinion) that a degree of ‘attractiveness’ was required for a woman to be able to engage in a monogamous, consensual relationship. What it overlooked was that a similar (or greater) degree of ‘attractiveness’ would be required for a woman to make a decent living as a prostitute. And thus to be anti-prostitution is a position that demands no more — and probably less — privilege than would be necessary for a woman who wanted to take money for sex from a desperate punter grant one of life’s fundamental experiences to a luckless individual.

OP posts:
scallopsrgreat · 26/03/2014 22:31

Yes Baleno, I was taking into account breaks. 6hrs is still only 3/4 of my working day after removing all breaks. Really this is basic maths. I feel like I must be talking in the language of Calculus or something.

And all this is assuming 1/2hr slots. Whereas 15min slots seem to be popular.

scallopsrgreat · 26/03/2014 22:36

Good post ezinma.

"Sex workers might be ‘happy’ to “decide these things for themselves”, but we can’t pretend they are decided with the same degree of agency, or that the constraints are comparable, as when the punter is choosing the ‘profile’ of the person he wants to pay for sex." Yes the agency each side holds is often depicted as a level playing field when it can't possibly be the case.

Bifauxnen · 26/03/2014 22:39

it's "if you don't agree then you are admitting you're ugly". Like "feminists are ugly hairy lesbians". If the only thing you value about women is their looks then call them ugly and denounce them as having no value. If enough people agree then you don't really need to have a coherent argument. It's an old tactic. An old thread on here touched on how little the insults have changed since the time of the suffragettes. anti-suffrage postcard
What depressing is that to a certain extent, they still work.

FloraFox · 26/03/2014 22:57

Agency is a lie and a very harmful lie. When faced with the reality that prostitution is harmful to women individually and women as a class, that many women have no freedom in which to exercise agency, somehow agency becomes the most important thing and is given priority over addressing the harm. It's the ultimate in victim-blaming, telling women these things that are happening to them are their fault because they chose it.

As a general principle, agency has no value without freedom and viable alternative options.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones · 26/03/2014 23:02

Bifaufen - yes. "Ugly" and "can't get a man" has always been something thrown at us.

But also - the insults to women change with the times. In 'Parades End' (a book published in the 1920's) the establishment men said of the suffragette women 'you know they're all whores, don't you?' Something damnable by society then.

Nowadays, society is more liberal - and what are feminists (or anyone objecting to females being treated as the sex class) called now? Yes, that's right, Prudes. Feminists hate sex now.

From whores to prudes in less than a century. But ugly, always ugly. Impressive.

Bifauxnen · 26/03/2014 23:12

Sabrina - that's a far better informed and more nuanced post than I could muster, thanks. I'm glad you got what I meant.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones · 26/03/2014 23:14

Thanks bif. Smile

dreamin · 27/03/2014 02:03

"noone has a right to a sex life"

Says a woman who can get sex with almost zero effort (even if she is fat, ugly and no social skills).

BelleOfTheBorstal · 27/03/2014 02:29

Ezinma, you rock! Fabulous post.

CaptChaos · 27/03/2014 08:25

Oh my!

Let me get this straight.

Baleno has been posting for 2 days, on 3 threads, 2 of which surprise! are discussing prostitution and on the other he admits that being a basically useless dad is all to the good, so far, so MRA.

He tells a regular poster that they are a troll.

He also fails to be able to do the math, and dismisses the experience of a trafficked woman because, let's face it, she is whom even the happy hookers on the same thread agreed with, because they don't fit in with his world view.

Could this be because the women he pays to have sex on are in the same position as the woman on the other threads, and he might have to finally face up to the fact that what he does is wrong?

TheDoctrineOfSnatch · 27/03/2014 08:44

By Georgina, I think she's got it!

Flowers Capt

ezinma · 27/03/2014 09:06

Thank you Belle, and scallops, and MrsTara, and anyone I've missed Smile I'm enjoying the pithier comments (ie, everyone's but mine)!

It's remarkable how women are derided as whores and prudes simultaneously. Like 'Obama is a communist islamist'. To get away with that, you have to trust that your audience already hates the hate-figure intensely enough that they won't think too hard about the contradiction, let alone the implausibility.

OP posts:
gilogowu · 27/03/2014 14:26

Most trafficking is for non-sexual work eg working in factories.

Yet feminists don't care about non-sexual trafficking. They only care about trafficking which is about sex (despite the fact we never seem to find any victims despite so many brothel raids).

Feminists are also set on banning all prostitution trafficking or no trafficking.

It's clear the "trafficking" is just a front and the real reason feminists hate prostitution is because it's about sex and they find it immoral.

gilogowu · 27/03/2014 14:27

Last summer all the "saunas" in Edinburgh were raided by police. How many victims of trafficking were found? ZERO

Last Dec a load of brothels in Soho were raided by police. How many victims of trafficking were found? ZERO

itsbetterthanabox · 27/03/2014 14:29

Gilo feminists do care about Slave labour and all types of trafficking. I don't see why you think they don't? This is thread about sexual trafficking so it's going to be discussing that...

LurcioLovesFrankie · 27/03/2014 14:29

Ho hum, another opportunity to repeat "people with normal sized brains can worry about more than one thing at once."

No, I don't shop at Primark because I'm worried about sweatshops.

Yes, I buy from my local small organic farmer because I'm aware of trafficking in big agrobusiness.

Now we've cleared that up, just do one, will you?

SabrinaMulhollandJjones · 27/03/2014 14:30

You again

[Weseeyou] bro.

LurcioLovesFrankie · 27/03/2014 14:31

(In case it wasn't obvious, that was to Gilo, not Betterthan...)

CaptChaos · 27/03/2014 14:35

Would you like to start a thread about non sex work trafficking gilo? Just to see how much feminists care about every kind of trafficked woman? Or would that interrupt your masturbatory tirades and force you to change you thinking too much?

[westillseeyou]

itsbetterthanabox · 27/03/2014 14:37

Even if someone is not trafficked they can still be coerced, threatened by a pimp, so out of it on drugs and driven by addiction they do anything or can't actually consent. You just don't know why a prostitute is doing that job and if you have sex with one you could very well be raping that person. How can anyone live with that?

gilogowu · 27/03/2014 14:38

maggiemcneill.wordpress.com/2013/03/21/dutch-threat/

in April 2011 a massive police raid in search of trafficking victims in Amsterdam was launched and found…none. Not one, despite the detention and interrogation of 157 women.

gilogowu · 27/03/2014 14:40

"Even if someone is not trafficked they can still be coerced"

That doesn't make sense. If they were coerced/threatened then they would by definition be trafficked.

gilogowu · 27/03/2014 14:41

"This is thread about sexual trafficking so it's going to be discussing that..."

And how much sexual trafficking is actually happening?

Pentameter 1 and 2 were massive UK-wide operations to look for victims and perps of trafficking. Also pretty much failures....

www.theguardian.com/uk/2009/oct/20/government-trafficking-enquiry-fails