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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

privilege and prostitution

282 replies

ezinma · 26/03/2014 15:15

Appearing in my social media today is one of those sharp and sassy thoughts for the day that I’m invited to approve by sharing. Where better to share it than here:

So, you are against prostitution. But you're an attractive person with a boyfriend. Who I assume you have sex with. That gives you privilege. Some people aren't so lucky. The only way they can get laid is by paying for it. Why do you think you have the right to experience one of life's fundamental experiences and others don't?

It’s from tumblr so we ought to make some allowances. Let’s, if we may, overlook the fact that I am a middle-aged frump with a civil partner; the debatable contention that sex, in and of itself, is one of life’s fundamental experiences; the erasure of women who aren’t “lucky” enough to have a boyfriend and whose right to A Fundamental Experience presumably requires them to seduce a partner using skills that cannot be withdrawn from a bank machine; and the regrettable (though now unavoidable) misuse of ‘privilege’ to refer to any old scenario where one group of people has a little bit more access to something than another group does. (Have I missed anything?)

What remains is the daring suggestion that a woman might be against prostitution because she is attractive. Since it's already well established that we fat old frumps are against prostitution — no glamorous john would waste his beer money on buying our flabby arses, and we are bitter about it! — then I’m left with only one conclusion: a woman’s attractiveness has no influence on her opinions about prostitution.

A lightbulb moment for me. Thanks, tumblr. Hmm

OP posts:
gilogowu · 27/03/2014 14:45

"hundreds of [surprise] raids on sex workers [brothels/saunas/homes/apartments etc] in a six-month campaign by government departments, specialist agencies and every police force in the country."

And what did we get out of it? We charge a few prostitutes with "running brothels" (ie working together) among other minor offences. But where are all these traffickers and victims we keep hearing about???

Thouneedsbedamned · 27/03/2014 14:57

This is an interesting report published in Forbes by the The London School of Economics and political science.

opens in pdf

Their cross section of 150 countries shows on average "countries with legalized prostitution experience a larger degree of reported human trafficking inflows"

SabrinaMulhollandJjones · 27/03/2014 16:38

Here's one, gilo

itsbetterthanabox · 27/03/2014 17:18

Look at low conviction rates of sexual offences as a whole. This is no different. People don't usually get convicted or charged for sexual offences, doesn't mean the rapists and pimps don't exist.

gilogowu · 27/03/2014 17:58

Prostitution is legal in both UK and Holland yet despite all those raids how come we very rarely find victims of sex-trafficking despite such high estimations?

Your report uses Melissa Farley as a source btw

It's generally the assumption that prostitutes are trafficked "by default". Recently a brothel was closed in Soho was closed on this assumption but was reopened after the prostitutes managed to convince the judge they were not trafficked.

prostitutescollective.net/2014/02/24/judge-overturns-decision-to-shut-down-brothel-after-prostitutes-prove-they-were-not-being-forced-to-work-there/

gilogowu · 27/03/2014 18:02

"People don't usually get convicted or charged for sexual offences, doesn't mean the rapists and pimps don't exist."

Well to charge traffickers we have to find them first. And spending 6 months involving all police forces across the entire length of the UK doing a huge number of surprise raids has been a failure.

www.theguardian.com/uk/2009/oct/20/government-trafficking-enquiry-fails

Why is this? Are the police really that incompetent or is it possible the number of sex-trafficked victims is far lower than given estimates?

CaptChaos · 27/03/2014 18:05

Oh goodie. Another punter on here to tell us we're not doing feminism right.

You keep thinking what you like. I'm sure it helps you to not think about the reasons why someone got to the point where their only real option was to have you sticking your dick in them, having bought access to their orifices. I'm sure those tears you've seen were only crocodile tears, women are, after all, emotional and ridiculous, not actual people. Plus of course, to men like you, they are merely a selection of holes to insert your dick into, aren't they?

There has already been 1 woman, who, by your own definition is trafficked commenting on these threads. Is she lying? Is she the only one in the country? Are she and the woman in Sabrina's link one and the same? If not, that's 2, that I have found for you in a matter of moments. Just 2 then?

What kind of people run large scale trafficking operations? What do those kind of people also tend to do when it comes to the Police? Please try and think before you type.

FloraFox · 27/03/2014 18:10

gilo when you buy a woman in prostitution, what steps do you take to ensure she is not coerced or trafficked, has not suffered sexual abuse, addiction or mental health problems?

gilogowu · 27/03/2014 18:11

"There has already been 1 woman, who, by your own definition is trafficked "

Are you referring to migsy? She did say she wasn't forced and could leave any time she wanted so no she is not trafficked.

gilogowu · 27/03/2014 18:15

And how many prostitutes are there in the UK who aren't trafficked?

100,000? 200,000?

AnyFucker · 27/03/2014 18:18

Migsy's situation comes under the following definition of trafficking. She owes her pimp money for accomodation and travel expenses. She also has been persuaded she owes him a debt of gratitude for "helping" her (into prostitution) when she was at a bad place in her life.

Bonded labor, or debt bondage, is probably the least known form of labor trafficking today, and yet it is the most widely used method of enslaving people. Victims become "bonded" when their labor is demanded as a means of repayment for a loan or service in which its terms and conditions have not been defined or in which the value of the victims’ services is not applied toward the liquidation of the debt. Generally, the value of their work is greater than the original sum of money "borrowed.

"Trafficking" is a much wider definition than the simple of thinking are able to acknowledge, it would seem.

gilogowu · 27/03/2014 18:19

Anyway care to comment on why so many raids has not been successful in finding traffickers or victims?

Do you think raids are the best way to approach this and should continue?

Do you think a large number of male officers kicking brothel doors down and bringing photographers along with them is ok?

AnyFucker · 27/03/2014 18:20

Migsy cannot leave prostitution or else she would have done it by now. She is forced to do it to pay her pimp what she "owes" him (the "debt" of course will never be paid)

So, yes she is forced. Just because she isn't chained to a bed while a succession of men fuck her means absolutely nothing.

FloraFox · 27/03/2014 18:23

www.spiegel.de/international/germany/human-trafficking-persists-despite-legality-of-prostitution-in-germany-a-902533.html

The police can do little for women like Alina. The pimps were prepared for raids, says Alina, and they used to boast that they knew police officers. "They knew when a raid was about to happen," says Alina, which is why she never dared to confide in a police officer.

The pimps told the girls exactly what to tell the police. They should say that they were surfing the web back home in Bulgaria or Romania and discovered that it was possible to make good money by working in a German brothel. Then, they had simply bought themselves a bus ticket and turned up at the club one day, entirely on their own.

AnyFucker · 27/03/2014 18:24

Gilo, do you think women who currently rely on the money they receive from men who pay to fuck them to feed themselves and their children will tell the truth about their situation ?

AnyFucker · 27/03/2014 18:25

You are a punter, gilo, just like the other ones who seek to justify their grubby little selves

FloraFox · 27/03/2014 18:25

gilo how do you know the prostitutes you see are not trafficked?

gilogowu · 27/03/2014 18:27

@AnyFucker

In Soho prostitutes suspected of being victims of trafficking spent a lot of effort convincing a judge they weren't so their brothel could be reopened. Would they do that if they were genuine victims?

FloraFox · 27/03/2014 18:27

gilo has any woman you have paid for sex cried before, during or after you fucked her?

gilogowu · 27/03/2014 18:29

Do you think raids are the best way to approach this and should continue?

Do you think a large number of male officers kicking brothel doors down and bringing photographers along with them is ok?

Do you think prostitutes should be charged with "running a brothel" just because they work together?

gilogowu · 27/03/2014 18:31

Do you think it is ok for tabloids to "out" (expose) prostitutes? (Irish tabloids are especially bad for this at the moment in support of the Swedish model going through N.Ireland parliament)

SabrinaMulhollandJjones · 27/03/2014 18:32

gilo - why do you keep re-registering on MN to make the same stupid points?

AnyFucker · 27/03/2014 18:33

Gilo, they "would do that" if they really, really needed the money from men who pay them to overlook their revulsion. Is that so difficult to understand for you ?

FloraFox · 27/03/2014 18:33

gilo how about answering some questions?

gilogowu · 27/03/2014 18:34

In Sweden prostitution is seen as "self-harm" and prostitutes have their children taken off them. Is this ok?

In Sweden prostitutes can have their home taken off them- even if they own it. Is that ok?

Here is a quote from Carina Edlund, Rose Alliance, a prostitute in Sweden:

“Before even thinking of a law that criminalises men who buy sex, UK politicians should hear from Swedish sex workers like myself about how we have treated under the law. We are still criminalised if we work together in apartments, we risk losing our home if we sell sex there even if we own it, social workers treat as like children and we can even lose custody of our kids because we are seen as victims suffering from a form of self-harm who can't take care of ourselves. This law should be taken away not exported to other countries.”

lauraslifeandthoughts.blogspot.co.uk/2014/03/sex-workers-response-stop.html