Newnight report on brothels

[itshardthinkingofanickname]

Worth £16 billion in Germany. Legal to "make it safer".

Interview with 22 yr old Hannah. 6 men per night, earns 100 to 1000 euros per night,

Talking about should it be illegal in the UK and the fact that brothels are safer than the streets. They have super brothels in Germany.

[Grennie]

The Nordic Model criminalises pimps and men buying women for sex. That is to stem the flow of new women coming in.

The support to women to leave if they want to, is provided by some projects in the UK like Eaves. But as women leave, new women come in. Often coerced, trafficked or abused. The criminalising of pimps and men buying "sex" helps to stem that.

That doesn't mean that there is no prostitution, but it is far less than it was in these countries.

Decriminalising totally assumes women are free agents making choices without any coercion. That is true for a tiny minority. In most cases women are being exploited by pimps, "boyfriends" or agencies, or are simply financially desperate.

Prostitution will never be safe for the women. It can not be made safe. The kind of man who thinks it is fine to buy a woman in this way, is not the kind of man who tends to treat women well. And where there is a lot of money to be made as there is in prostitution, criminal gangs will always move in. That makes women very unsafe.

[migsy86]

I'm so angry that they voted in favour of this law.

im all for making it safer for the women who chose to do this - thats not the same as forced into doing this - but surely decriminalising the work means less opportunity to exploit the women?

I fully support any law to punish trafficking gangs and women who are 'forced'. But I choose this as a way of earning a living, to me it all boils down to being able to provide for myself and my child and pay off debts.

No job is 100% safe. But it would be a hell of a lot safer for us to work in groups in a controlled environment (with panic buttons, someone to watch out for us and dodgy clients). Because at the minute I don't know who will walk through the door. I only find out if they are under the influence of drugs/alcohol, or are very aggressive when they are actually inside, and then I don't feel I can tell them to leave.

The people who want to abuse women are less likely to do so in a tightly regulated brothel, whereas at the moment we risk violence every time we open the door.

[Grennie]

migsy - The evidence does not bear out your idea that a tightly regulated brothel would be safer. Basically because those running brothels don't usually care about the safety of the women in them. Germany has seen the advent of the flat rate. You pay one low fee and then get to have whatever kind of sex you want, with however many women.

[JuliaScurr]

migsy you asked on Tues at 10:42 if abuse survivors could make choices and give consent. Yes, of course we can - within the same constraints as all other women living in this society. Many of us are dependent to varying degrees on maintaining relations with men for various reasons (financial, emotional, fear of violence, etc). So consent is not necessarily 'freely' given and we don't all have the degree of 'choice' we would want. Those concepts of choice and consent are used to disguise the inequalities and constraints we all face. The difference is not every situation is defended and justified by relying on that illusion of freedom and equality

[GarlicLeGrenouille]

Vicar, the point about the Nordic model is that the sex workers ARE legal, and protected in law.

It's the punters who aren't.

[FloraFox]

Vicar don't you think as a police officer, you should familiarise yourself with the Nordic model before using your position as a police officer to support your views on prostitutuion in a public forum? The same goes for your statements about legalisation being safer. What do you think about migsy's views that she cares only about being able to make money and less about safety?

[GarlicLeGrenouille]

... To add, the Nordic model also guarantees support & training for prostitutes who want to leave the trade & learn a new one.

[JuliaScurr]

I support the Nordic model in principle but it is sometimes badly implemented and women are still criminalised for eg working together. Often their children are taken away

[GarlicLeGrenouille]

It's a little bit tricky, as the prostitute is technically an accessory to the punter's crime. I know this is explicitly ruled out in the original model, but am not up to speed on actual implementations.

Having had extensive experience with people who grew up living with prostituted mothers, I'm afraid I agree it is a damaging lifestyle for children. I'm sure plenty of women protect their DC successfully, but it seems many don't or can't.

[Grennie]

Julia - Any evidenced based model is only as good as it's implementation. So we try and get it implemented properly. And if children are at risk, then yes they may be removed, including children of prostituted women.

But under both legalisation and criminalisation, children at risk may be taken into care.

[ThatVikRinA22]

why is it that when ever i venture on to these boards, ready and willing to be educated - i am rounded on and words attributed to me that i have not actually used?

i didnt say i would ONLY listen to sex workers. i am more than willing to be told i am wrong or for people to disagree with my opinion, and im more than willing to read the linked to articles.

but the reception on this board for anyone who voices any other opinion than the regulars is frosty, hostile and aggressive.

i venture onto these boards once in a blue moon, so far within 2 pages i have been told i dont know what im talking about, so i ask for clarification on the model that appears to get support - then i am told i should have researched it before i deemed to post.

is this they way you think you will educate ill informed people just like you have me down as?
because actually all the snotty, rude, aggressive, opinionated responses do is made me hide the whole topic.

which i am about to do in the next 30 seconds.

you are preaching to each other and certainly will not reach the unconverted by being so aggressive.

i am a woman, i am working in a male dominated industry, i do not post in a hostile, rude or aggressive way and yet i feel completely alienated from posting on these boards, yet again.

thanks for the welcome. you should pop a pinned post on here, a warning perhaps just so the uninitiated can fuck off before they type a single sentence.
because thats the message i get loud and clear.

[MorrisZapp]

What she said^

[Grennie]

Vicar, I am sorry if the reception has been hostile. But you did start off by saying you were in the police and talked as if you knew what you were talking about, when clearly you don't know about all the different models tried out in other countries and the research around that.

If people come on to feminism and don't know things but ask, they tend to get a really warm reception.

You wrote as if you were using your job to inflate the validity of your own opinion, which actually I wouldn't have had an issue with if your opinions were based on more knowledge than the average person in the street. But they do not appear to be.

You have to remember as well while this may be an interesting topic for some, for some this is an incredibly sensitive and personal one. Many feminists arguing for the Nordic Model have been in prostitution or witnessed close at hand close relatives and friends being in prostitution. So it is inevitably an emotional topic.

[ThatVikRinA22]

and you assume that i dont have personal experience.
my sister, the one who died, the one who was on heroin, was linked as many are when on drugs to prostitution.

i did not post my job to inflate the validity of what i was saying. i have first hand experience of drugs (brother on heroin for 10 years) sister on heroin and now dead. also involved in prostitution. and crime generally. as is brother.

but my validity was based on my job??

like is said. a pinned post would be helpful.
it could just say fuck off.
then i would have been forewarned.

(and thanks morris)

and i read this while trying to find out how to hide a whole board.
because this holier than thou "we know what we are talking about but you dont actually" just pisses me right off and turns me absolutely off ever reading let alone posting on this board again.

[Grennie]

I am really sorry to hear about your sister and brother. That must have been tough for you.

[FloraFox]

vicar you started off with "as a police officer". For most people, me included, this gives extra weight to your view. The pimp lobby leaps on statements by police officers wherever they can to support their position. You may not have intentionally tried to use your job to give more weight to your view, but it's not unreasonable for us to think this given your post. We don't know you or your family history only that you spoke "as a police officer".

The Nordic model is no longer a fringe issue. MEPs have just voted on it. The PSNI have withdrawn their opposition to it following the hearings of the NIA Justice Committee. When someone purports to speak as a police officer, it's not unreasonable to expect them to be moderately knowledgable about the issue.

Similarly, abolitionists often encounter people who say "I listen to sex workers". It is often a silencing technique against women who are not in prostitution and also tried to claim the moral high ground, as if the rest of us couldn't give a fuck about women in prostitution. Also as when says, it usually means "I listen to a select group of women, who are empowered enough to speak to me" rather than survivors who are abolitionist.

I'm always a bit at people who post something here and expect a trophy just for spending 30 seconds thinking about serious issues that affect the lives of millions of women.

[GarlicLeGrenouille]

Erm, despite having made a specific effort to find FWR threads I feel I can usefully post to, I agree with Vicar - about the board, not the Nordic model. I'm not hiding it - I care too much about certain feminist issues to blank off a good source - but am saddened that it seems to be heading back towards its old "unfriendly" character. Feminism can be friendly

I'm not engaging in any further FWR board introspection, by the way. The pub's the best bit imo.

[ThatVikRinA22]

i rest my case.

a trophy? no i didnt want a trophy. I am very open about what i do for a living and in some respects the job informs my view, but so does my own personal experience, as with most things. i am as open about my background of abuse, of being in care, the autism that runs in my family, the drug use of members of my family and the stuff that comes with the territory. my own experience adds more weight than the job i do, but while i am open, i am also open to abuse so i dont broadcast what qualifies me to have any opinion on every post i make. (i feel that to have an opinion on this part of the site requires that you justify what those 'qualifications' are - opinon for opinions sake. gazooks. we will have none of that around here thank you very much....

but i didnt see the notice that suggested this part of the site was exclusive to only those 'in the club'.

my opinion, was that anything that makes it safer for the women who choose to do this work is a good thing. i was happy to be told what that might be. my opinons are just that - not set in stone and i am happy to be educated. the tone here is actually intimidating and offputting.

the intimidating overtones on here make it inaccessible to anyone else - so i showed my ignorance. i didnt claim to be an expert - i am a beat officer, with no specialism, (so read jack of all trades and master of none. but i am passionate about my job and protecting the vulnerable in society) my experience with sex work is only that i have spoken to some women who work as prostitutes, and have listened to interviews with women who work abroad (germany).

if i was wrong then i am happy to be told im wrong and shown why im wrong - but the mocking, aggressive,attacking and actually downright rude responses make it impossible to even participate in any discussion here.
I post on most areas on the site, i have a son with special needs, i come from a background of being in care, i clawed my way out of social deprivation and attained a job in a traditionally male dominated area and i like to think i managed to hang on to my humility.

and yet, this is the only board on which ive posted, and on which i have ever been made to feel totally stupid. totally unwelcome. like a total idiot to even entertain the notion that making the work safer for women might take a different approach to the one we have that doesnt work. The tone here is that you are all intellectually superior and scoff at ill informed idiots that have the audacity to post.

no i havent sat and studied the nordic approach. is that the entrance exam?
you can add that to the sticky.

still cant work out how to hide a whole topic. will ask now on site stuff. i have nothing to add to the FWR board and actually no longer want to read it.
its a shame because i might have actually learnt something and who knows, i **might have become a fully paid up card carrying member of the club, entrance exam passed, and everything.

**(probably not.)

right, i must get back to reading my copy of Caitlin Morans "how to be a woman".

gnite.

[TheVictorian]

Vicar to hide this thread its at the top of this page.

[ThatVikRinA22]

not thread - board.

you can hide whole boards. someone has told me how now so i will say adieu.

[FloraFox]

i feel that to have an opinion on this part of the site requires that you justify what those 'qualifications' are

I think if you were to spend more time on this board, you would find the opposite is true. Most posters do not post their "qualifications" and their views are treated with respect or disdain as people find them, and regardless of the person's qualifications. It's the beauty of anonymity. The irony is that part of the problem you have faced here is that you did post your qualifications to speak - that you were speaking "as a police officer". Although you may not have meant to elevate your voice over others because of your experience, I'm surprised you can't see that it's not unreasonable that others might have thought that.

Similarly with your comments about listening to "sex workers". You may not have intended to come across as you did but I have tried to explain that lots of pro-prostitution / MRA types say this to silence women speaking about prostitution and to claim some sort of moral high ground.

It's a shame you're not willing to stick around and talk. I don't normally pay any attention to what people claim their credentials to be because it is anonymous and they could be lying. I believe you are a police officer because I've seen your posts for ages (although I didn't know about your family). I think your views and experience have a lot of value and it would be great if you would share them rather than flouncing off in a huff.

[migsy86]

Although I don't agree with a lot of posters on this board it has been incredibly supportive. I still find feminism scary because of the whole sex work thing. I suppose being a prostitute kinda goes against the grain.

[rhinoceerr]

It is clear criminalization (including the Nordic Model) is not what sex workers want. Listen to them and you might find they don't actually want their clients criminalized. If it is illegal to pay for sex it is still pushed underground and sex workers will still need to hide from the police and meet with clients out of sight.

From time to time we hear of an alleged sex worker like Rachel Moran appearing and strongly advocating the Nordic model. But I do find it strange she claimed to work in Dublin yet it seems noone is able to vouch that they have seen her. The WG community is small and they all know and look out for each other, so why is noone able to say they know or have at least seen or heard of RM?

"217 women were in the Netherlands where there is some legalisation of prostitution."

The figure is 127, and they were murdered before Netherlands legalized prostitution.

[rhinoceerr]

And I don't get the whole "survivor" term. It seems like a recent term that's being used instead of "prostituted women". Feminists often say "listen to survivors" and Rachel Moran speaks of "survivor groups"but technically survivor just means a sex worker who is still alive. That includes all the sex workers who advocate decriminalization.