Newnight report on brothels

[itshardthinkingofanickname]

Worth £16 billion in Germany. Legal to "make it safer".

Interview with 22 yr old Hannah. 6 men per night, earns 100 to 1000 euros per night,

Talking about should it be illegal in the UK and the fact that brothels are safer than the streets. They have super brothels in Germany.

[KerryKatonasKhakis]

I completely agree NiceTabard. It's so easy to be detached and fatalistic (it has always happened and will always happen) when it is not directly affecting you (or you can't see how it is affecting you).

That being said, I also agree that it shouldn't have to affect you to mean you should do the right thing i.e. not support the exploitation or vulnerable people.

It's so frustrating that people cannot 'see it'. Let me have one last go...

*IF IT WAS CONSENSUAL YOU WOULD NOT NEED TO PAY.

*IF THERE WERE OTHER VIABLE OPTIONS PROSTITUTES WOULD NOT BE FUCKING YOU FOR MONEY. THE ODDS ARE, THEY ARE SUFFERING.

*WE WILL NEVER HAVE EQUALITY WHILST MEN CAN BUY THE USE OF A WOMAN''S BODY.

*PUNTER ATTITUDES AFFECT EVERY SINGLE WOMAN NEGATIVELY.

Might that get through?

[grimbletart]

Doubt it Kerry - men who use prostitutes don't give a stuff about anything except getting their end away. They are ultimate example of "I'm all right Jack". They are knobs, end of.

[NiceTabard]

Thing is that I know men who have bought sex, some I see regularly, who are basically nice blokes. They did it on stags in eastern europe because well the opportunity is there so give it a go. Maybe some men in that situation think (like I have about different stuff) well here's my opportunity I'll go for it.

I just really genuinely think that normalisation leads to all sorts of shit I don't even want to think about. The point about the Germany piece on newsnight was that maybe it hasn't worked out and people are having doubts.

I really hope we adopt the swedish model. Girls and young women are treated badly enough in this country as it is.

[NiceTabard]

Having said that I also know someone who had sex in return for stuff, she was 15 and fucked up frankly, but one of my best friends.

I honestly think a lot of "genuine" men have no idea about how it is for young women and girls, in the UK even, let alone elsewhere

[KerryKatonasKhakis]

You are right grimble and Nice

It is already normalised. It's a common device in films/dramas/sitcoms, newspapers etc.

And in a few of my social circles: I have first hand experience of sex-worker users.

I have listened to them discuss the unattractiveness of the sex workers and how brilliant they (the men) were for 'cumming' under those circumstances.

Please, please, please any pro-prostitution people, explain to me how the use of vulnerable women/men/children for mens' orgasms is a good or, even, tolerable thing,

[SabrinaMulhollandJjones]

It all just seems clear to me. I don't think the average man has any idea of how it is to grow up female.

Yes.

Of being subjected to all sorts of aggressive male sexual behaviour from when they are young. I have been offered money for sex twice. Lots of women I know have been curb crawled. If I had been skint / homeless / wanted some money, maybe I'd have said OK. That is not consent. In all other things in our society I have plenty of privilege. Yet men still think they can but me to fuck. As they think is their right? What's the harm in asking? Well LOTS FFS. Puts you in your place, for a start. And that's how I feel as someone who didn't need / have to say well OK then and do it.

God, yes! NT that is so well written. Me too. I am a fairly privileged white female - I have been propositioned like this too - and the constant living in a world where men just want to have sex with me, and will try it on any-bloody-time, just on the off-chance is draining. It still happens now and I'm in my 40's, married, with 3 children.

The implication that men have the 'right' to do this, that they have the 'right' to pay women for sex and call it 'consent' just pisses me off. It pisses me off that my daughter will have to go through the same - conditioned to believe that her value is in her inherent attractiveness to men, her sexuality, rather than her worth as a human being.

Prostitution is one of the ways that the sexual inequality of women is perpetuated. That's why I support the Swedish model.

[KerryKatonasKhakis]

Like Sabrina's post.

[SabrinaMulhollandJjones]

Like your posts, too, Kerry.

[migsy86]

"Please, please, please any pro-prostitution people, explain to me how the use of vulnerable women/men/children for mens' orgasms is a good or, even, tolerable thing"

It's tolerable because the majority of prostitutes give their consent to be used by men for their orgasms. I know what im doing and there are already laws surrounding the abuse of children which any right thinking person would support. But one thing I cant support is the criminalising of the clients.

This is my lively hood and I don't want people to take it from me.

[LurcioLovesFrankie]

Migsy - if I'm understanding some of your other comments correctly, you don't actually enjoy what you do, you do it out of financial necessity, and I get the impression that if someone were to offer you alternative work which paid equally well and fitted round your childcare needs, you'd be interested in taking it. So I guess my question is "What could or should those of us who support the Swedish model also do by way of offering support and alternatives to women who would then find their customer base removed?"

[JuliaScurr]

here's the thing - the fact that some women accept that men use them for orgasms forms part of the culture that all women have to live in - one where all men know that there are a some people, usually women, who can be used. That affects us all, not just individuals who choose to do it.

[GarlicLeGrenouille]

Yes, and that's why things like kerb-crawling are offensive. Not because "they think I'm a prostitute", but because of their assumption that women's bodies - any women's, in general - are available for purchase. The same mindset causes sleazy comments and bum-grabbing, etc: all women exist for male amusement. Buy a body and you're legal; steal one and you're not. This entirely reduces women's bodies to commodities.

[migsy86]

I don't believe what I do affects females as a whole. And if someone removed my customer base I suppose I would need my debts wiping off, and a well paid job.

But I still can't see how women can say that banning brothels is a good idea. I work alone from a rented room in a flat, I also work at 'parties'. I much prefer the 'party' work because I feel safer there. When i'm on my own anything could happen to me, I've had some horrible experiences and they have all happened when I've been alone.

At least in a brothel I would be protected from abuse, surely that's reason enough to make them legal.

[BriarRainbowshimmer]

I agree with KerryKatonasKhakis. As long as there are men who see women as something to buy and use - and are legally allowed to do this - there can be no equality.

[GarlicLeGrenouille]

No-one's saying that what YOU do affects women as a whole, migsy. We're saying we're affected by living in a society that condones what your customers do.

The law says it's OK when men pay for sexual access to a woman's body.
The law says it's a crime to steal access to a woman's body, as in rape.
And it's okay if access is freely given, of course.

This makes sexual access more like a commodity - a thing to be given or bought - than a personal interaction between two bodies.

Let's say it could be compared to punching someone in the face (because I'm struggling to think of any direct comparisons!) A man might freely allow someone to punch him, say at a boxing gym. If someone comes up and punches him without a by-your-leave, it's a crime (he 'stole' access.) Now let's say some bloke has the bright idea of charging people for a good old punch at his face.
... This catches on, and soon young men all over the place are charging other men to punch them. It gives the customers a nice release for their stress, and, hey, at least they're not punching people who don't want to be punched ...
In your opinion, is this a healthy trade? Is it okay for cash-strapped young men to be getting punched in the face for money?
Should it be legal?
If this trade were controlled, who should we aim to stop: the young men selling access to their faces, or the stressed men who enjoy punching them?

And is it true that being able to pay folks to be punched makes men less likely to punch people in general? Or does the fact that they can legally punch people make it more likely they'll get used to the idea, and give in to their face-punching urges more often?

I don't think I've expressed this very well, but here goes.

[migsy86]

That's the point, sex is nothing more than a transaction to most prostitutes and their clients. I don't view sex as anything more than a bodily function and as long as I'm over the age of 18 then I should be able to sell sexual access to my body, and my clients and I should be safe and protected by law not criminalised.

[GarlicLeGrenouille]

... just a bodily function.

I may be missing something here, but are there any bodily functions we can be paid for? Breathing, eating, puking, pissing, shitting, sleeping, bleeding ... not as far as I know.

Sex isn't just a bodily function, it's a specific set of physical interactions.

shouldn't unemployed women be required to engage in prostitution?

And unemployed men!

[migsy86]

Why should men have the right to pay women to participate in physical sexual acts for the men's gratification?

Why should the law condone and promote men's rights to buy sex, and men's right to solicit paid sex from any woman at any time in any location?

^ Because men and women should have the rights as consenting adults to enter into a contract without the govt and law interfering. It's not just about mens right but also about the women's right too.

Why should the law protect those men who beat, rob, rape and kill prostitutes?

^ The law doesn't protect those men and rightly so. Although the stigma of being a prostitute is often enough to put women off reporting crimes such as rape and sexual assault.

Why should the law promote access of those men to women, and then download the responsibility for keeping women safe to those women?

The law cannot make women in prostitution safe by condoning and promoting access to those very same women by the very men who pose the danger. It's a nonsense

^ I have yet heard of one argument that criminalising the purchase of sex makes women safer. I would like to see it legalised and also regulated so it is safer. At the minute I'm responsible for my own safety, I have no one else to look out for me, again if I was in a regulated brothel I would be much safer. For one I would have other people around me and I would feel confident about reporting any assault that may happen.

[migsy86]

Also people on benefits shouldn't be forced into ANY work and not everyone is suitable for this job. You have to be very thick skinned and not have the emotional attachment that many people have to sex.

[migsy86]

Because you know what the men think of you, sometime they will tell you. Some can be downright rude, by saying you're too thin/fat and some can be abusive and won't listen to you when you express your discomfort. You couldn't do this job if you are sensitive, it would really mess with your head.