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Original poster

Feeling conflicted about (childless) man's feminist views on mothering

240 replies

NomNomNom · 31/01/2014 22:33

Hi,

I think this is one of my first forays into the feminist section, although I've been lurking. I was hoping to get your balanced and reasonable views on this.

Basically, I don't know what to think about this - my personal pissed-offness is clashing with my political views, I think.

I have this colleague who is in his mid-20s (I'm slightly older), childless, very well-educated, very right-on, yet he seems inexperienced in real-life matters. I don't like him for various reasons that are not really relevant. Mostly that he expresses vaguely political views when it helps him impress people in positions of power at work, but doesn't really know a lot about the actual issues and seems to put it on a bit.

Today he posted a video on Facebook of a kind of spoken-word performance by a young female poet/stand-up that was all about the physical changes motherhood brings and how women are great, strong etc for what they go through during pregnancy, birth and breastfeeding. It was a great poem, I really like it, and it expresses many things I think as well.

But somehow I'm really pissed off that this guy has posted it. He has nothing to do with children. He'll never go through those experiences himself. I often think he jumps on political bandwagons, so I don't know if my discomfort is to do with that.

I think if a dad had posted the video, I would have thought how lucky his partner is.

But somehow, a childless (privileged) guy doing it makes me angry. I've always been a feminist, but only found feminist approaches to mothering and the whole mothering/motherhood distinction a little while after my daughter was born. Reading blogs about feminist mothering, Adrienne Rich etc. really helped me to make sense of my situation and feelings, some of it was so eye-opening and just amazing. I really like how other mothers seem to experience the same issues as me and then write about it in a thoughtful and concise way, taking apart the challenges - it seems like a kind of almost intimate community of mothers (that sounds completely wanky and essentialist, I know!). I don't know how to explain it. So somehow, I just get the sense that this guy I know is 'doing' feminism in an almost consumerist way, putting it on - because feminist views on mothering have nothing to do with his life, so why is he posting about that?

I have to admit that I occasionally feel slightly conflicted about aspects of my feminism - e.g. the whole question of whether men can be feminists (though I read a great explanation regarding how one can perceive feminism as either shared political aims or shared experience). I'm still on the fence when it comes to those 2 views, but I suppose for me feminist approaches to motherhood are rooted in shared experience, and this guy does not share it, so he should butt out.

But on the other hand, more men should admire women for the strength involved in making a person and nurturing them, so… I just don't know!!

OP posts:
Freyalright · 07/02/2014 17:45

They are helpful but relate to a different thread not this one

BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 07/02/2014 17:49

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Freyalright · 07/02/2014 17:49

I said I think we agree in our conclusions

BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 07/02/2014 17:50

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Freyalright · 07/02/2014 17:53

I think the simple sharing of the video (no comment) is exactly what the video was created for. It benefits the poet, normally, they are looking for views.

DuskAndShiver · 07/02/2014 18:14

erm you don't need me here, but can I just point out, that with hardly any words between them, I said I should have the sense not to talk about FGM in the presence of someone with a closer personal knowledge of the matter

With a bunch of other white privilged lefties I think it is fine for us all to use each other as sounding boards to feel through our feelings or knowledge on the matter. With someone whose aunts have all been through it, or have been through it themselves, you SHUT THE FUCK UP AND LISTEN. is that so hard?

I would do so even if the person is an apologist for FGM (some women who have been through it must be, some must believe it is the only way, like footbinding and subjugation to endless housework as if it doesn't matter as it is the way to keep a man) and I don't have to agree with them. but I do have to leave arguing the point to someone closer to their personal circumstances. Sorry but it is true. It is a vital matter of taste and etiquette. changing that individual's mind - well first who put me in charge of education? and second - it is less important than me showing some fucking respect, in this instance

DuskAndShiver · 07/02/2014 18:21

I think what is really coming out here is that a feminist position has to be so careful, so hedged to seem acceptable, let alone palatable.
I really don't care if men like feminism or not. Honestly, if they like it too much, it can't be working.
I feel like the stuff that freya is doing to my position - all this intense analysis and extrapolation and unlikely thought experimentation and counter factuals - is about frantically testing how this could be extended and universalised and might become offensive to men. I don't care. I don't mean anything I said on this thread to be universal, or a rule, and if you try to make it into one and find it doesn't work, well I no surprises there, and if you try to make it into one and find out it comes out as not very nice to men, well you are just using their stuff on us - stretching everything to the point of absurdity looking for hostility or inconsistency and then shouting "AHA!" What on earth is the point?

Freyalright · 07/02/2014 18:24

Fair enough dusk. You wouldn't share a video though and you don't know the back ground of MN members so out of etiquette you won't comment on anything you are not directly related to.

DuskAndShiver · 07/02/2014 18:32

erm, Freya, have you seen me waffling on about stuff you don't believe is directly relevant to me?

In answer to my question at the end of the last post "what on earth is the point?" - I believe feminists who do this to feminist discourse (chivvy and chip and qualify and weaken etc) think they are testing it, so that the fatal flaws are removed, and everyone will have to believe we are both Fair and Right.
THIS WILL NEVER HAPPEN.
Patriarchy will never believe that justice - real justice for women - is fair and right. By trying to pre-rest all positions so that no one can object to them, all we do is soften our position to the point that is has no purchase, no edge.

Freyalright · 07/02/2014 18:38

Dusk, you are extrapolating. I've been referring to the sharing of a video. That doesn't mean you have to always be careful, or soft.
What is the point of your view and starting point? In the case of a man sharing a video? What are the benefits of that?

DuskAndShiver · 07/02/2014 18:39

Erm the benefit of catharsis, in being able to say "yep what a dickhead"?

ArtetasSwollenAnkle · 07/02/2014 18:39

I really don't care if men like feminism or not. Honestly, if they like it too much, it can't be working.

Really? That is quite a statement. Do you just mean radical feminism, or all strands?

Freyalright · 07/02/2014 18:43

If a man sharing a video causes your initial response to be 'what a dickhead' then I don't see the benefit.

DuskAndShiver · 07/02/2014 18:48

It wasn't an "initial response", it was a response to the OP which had quite a lot of information about context (that being, this guy is basically a dickhead)

Artetas, if you look how many female CEOs there are relative to men, or how many women in Parliament, or the relative earnings of men and women, it is pretty clear that men do not want to cede their privilege relative to women. That is a state of affairs that they would not like. This is the state of affairs that feminism is working towards. I can't see what is contentious about my statement in context of how, in the world, how patriarchy chooses to treat women.

Freyalright · 07/02/2014 18:50

Dusk lets get you on jury duty

DuskAndShiver · 07/02/2014 18:51

I mean if they liked feminism, or what feminism stands for, they would just give us back all our bedroom and stop pretending this is somehow out of their control

DuskAndShiver · 07/02/2014 18:55

why jury duty?
(have never been called - gutted about this)

Freyalright · 07/02/2014 18:59

I think you would be great at it. Very reasonable. Independent and fair.

WidowWadman · 07/02/2014 18:59

dusk

"I didn't make any value judgements about the content of what people say, more on who gets to hog the air waves on what topics."

And that's where we differ - I don't give a fig about who is arguing for a cause, if the argument is the right one. I particularly don't like people being reduced to their gonads. That's sexism.

WidowWadman · 07/02/2014 19:21

There's an awful lot of projection going on about the guy's motives (dare I call it "femsplaining"?), all based on the fact that the OP doesn't like him.

DuskAndShiver · 07/02/2014 20:25

Freya - "I think you would be great at it. Very reasonable. Independent and fair."

Interesting that this personal dig (sarcastic, and quite irrelevant because I have said throughout that this is nothing to do with some notion of objective rules and is in fact purely a personal response, and generally not showing you in a very good light) comes directly after my 18:48 post which is a factual, logical extrapolation from actual matters of fact in the world, that if men wanted to share privilege with us they would, and asking them nicely to work with us isn't really getting to the heart of the issue. Ironic that you use the word "reasonable" in your petulant, childish, ad feminem response to not having the upper hand. It's the opposite of reason. As so much "common sense" is.

Widow, you're pages behind the argument, neither of those posts merits a response.

BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 07/02/2014 20:37

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

gelati3 · 07/02/2014 20:45

You sound a bit obsessed with this guy. What are you doing on his Facebook page if you don't like him??

WidowWadman · 07/02/2014 20:46

dusk - sorry, I don't have the time to mumsnet when I'm working, so could only respond to your reply to me now that I'm at home.

But well done for putting me down.

Freyalright · 07/02/2014 20:57

Dusk, you are projecting that sarcasm on to my post. I suppose you project whatever you like, be it a post, a link or a video share.

You say it's a personal response then have used many generalities about how people not directly oppressed should act and behave.

Some people, men and women, see how it is at the moment as the norm. They don't think about it. Maybe allowing men or non-feminist women the opportunity to share a video may engage others and start a pathway to learning.