Feeling conflicted about (childless) man's feminist views on mothering

[NomNomNom]

Hi,

I think this is one of my first forays into the feminist section, although I've been lurking. I was hoping to get your balanced and reasonable views on this.

Basically, I don't know what to think about this - my personal pissed-offness is clashing with my political views, I think.

I have this colleague who is in his mid-20s (I'm slightly older), childless, very well-educated, very right-on, yet he seems inexperienced in real-life matters. I don't like him for various reasons that are not really relevant. Mostly that he expresses vaguely political views when it helps him impress people in positions of power at work, but doesn't really know a lot about the actual issues and seems to put it on a bit.

Today he posted a video on Facebook of a kind of spoken-word performance by a young female poet/stand-up that was all about the physical changes motherhood brings and how women are great, strong etc for what they go through during pregnancy, birth and breastfeeding. It was a great poem, I really like it, and it expresses many things I think as well.

But somehow I'm really pissed off that this guy has posted it. He has nothing to do with children. He'll never go through those experiences himself. I often think he jumps on political bandwagons, so I don't know if my discomfort is to do with that.

I think if a dad had posted the video, I would have thought how lucky his partner is.

But somehow, a childless (privileged) guy doing it makes me angry. I've always been a feminist, but only found feminist approaches to mothering and the whole mothering/motherhood distinction a little while after my daughter was born. Reading blogs about feminist mothering, Adrienne Rich etc. really helped me to make sense of my situation and feelings, some of it was so eye-opening and just amazing. I really like how other mothers seem to experience the same issues as me and then write about it in a thoughtful and concise way, taking apart the challenges - it seems like a kind of almost intimate community of mothers (that sounds completely wanky and essentialist, I know!). I don't know how to explain it. So somehow, I just get the sense that this guy I know is 'doing' feminism in an almost consumerist way, putting it on - because feminist views on mothering have nothing to do with his life, so why is he posting about that?

I have to admit that I occasionally feel slightly conflicted about aspects of my feminism - e.g. the whole question of whether men can be feminists (though I read a great explanation regarding how one can perceive feminism as either shared political aims or shared experience). I'm still on the fence when it comes to those 2 views, but I suppose for me feminist approaches to motherhood are rooted in shared experience, and this guy does not share it, so he should butt out.

But on the other hand, more men should admire women for the strength involved in making a person and nurturing them, so… I just don't know!!

[DuskAndShiver]

were you not being sarcastic, Freya? Do you actually think I am really fair & objective?

no Buffy I didn't think you were being rude, I did talk for pages and pages, so, yes, please refer to anything I said if you like.

Widow - sorry if you think I was putting you down - I didn't mean it personally, I just feel sometimes (on the internet - in life - whatever) that people don't really have discussions, they just wait for their moment to say the thing that they think. I feel more frustrated about this on the internet though (and at work when I have put things in writing) because once a thing has been written down, if you missed it because you were distracted or something, you can just go back and re-read it. I always expect people to read the things I (or other people) have written before they enter conversations about them! And that is where I am stupid, and that is what causes me to get snippy.

I have learnt a lot in this conversation, so thank you very much (not sarcastic, by the way, just to be clear!) I haven't really changed my mind about the substance of the things I have been saying, though I have learnt a lot about how people think about things, how they argue, and how they feel about feminism.

[freyasnow]

Just posting to say that there are two different Freyas on this thread, which I am sure is creating confusion (and probably has done on previous threads too). I will change user names to avoid this confusion.

[HomeHelpMeGawd]

I've followed this thread with real interest. I found Dusk's analogy very helpful. It crystallises for me where an act turns from ok to not ok. Standing up at a funeral and eulogising about someone you don't know well not ok. Posting about that same person on your Facebook probably not ok. Reposting a YouTube video they made about their struggles with cancer -- only ok given the right context. To my mind the right context is:

1. genuinely moved by what the person said and clear that the poster would want their message spread
   
2. not doing it for self-aggrandisement
   
3. sensitive to your friends and relatives who might be finding their own struggles with illness hard to bear
   
4. no real prospect of the reposting hurting the friends and relatives of the person with the illness
   All that said, I don't think there's an obligation to stay silent for fear of upsetting someone else, any more than a father must not post about his children's accomplishment for fear of upsetting a person struggling with infertility. Sensitivity is needed and I agree that we ought to accept NomNomNom's assessment of this chap is accurate. I'm sure it will be based on more than what she has articulated here - plenty of tacit / below the radar knowledge that is tough to put into words. But we most of us know an arse when we meet one.
   
   So I've shifted my position in respect of this particular guy, and am more wary about my previous generalisation that almost every reposting should be ok by me. But I still think that some reposting by men can be ok on these issues, provided that it is done with good intent and sufficient sensitivity.
   
   These are higher standards than I would apply to most random posts on the internet but as Dusk says, womens's voices are too often drowned out, so there is good reason for higher standards.

[ArtetasSwollenAnkle]

I think for those reason you have articulated very well,, Home, men should just avoid this stuff. Someone is always going to see it in a dim light. Let the feminists get on with feminism. Silent support works best.

[DuskAndShiver]

I don't think all the posters who want to find immutable rules of conduct are looking for these in good faith, in order to find solutions to the eternal problem What Is It To Be Good, To Do The Right Thing?
I think some of them are gleefully revelling in the impossibility of providing the rules and the many inconsistencies such attempts will throw up (attempts which they tried to foist on me, remember, not something I set out to do), because they don't want to have to bother with the tedious uncomfortable fact that some behaviours are better than others, and some easy ordinary things that everyone does, that no one wants to analyse, or stop doing, make you a bit of a shit. Sorry, but being good costs. And right here is where you start paying, in sweat (sorry started channeling Miss Grant there)

I just posted on the other thread and I think that cost is key. Pre-feminist behaviour is likely to carry penalties, if you are doing it right, and while some of it may not (and that doesn't make it worthless if it has an effect) you need to do it all to count yourself as an ally. Posing shit on Facebook that sucks up to powerful people in your work context doesn't come under the category of "costs"

[ArtetasSwollenAnkle]

And those motives are open to question, aren't they? As they are in this particular case. We don't know this chap, but his action has been called into question by quite a few posters. Would we say from this discussion that this chap has had an overall negative or positive effect?

And given that social media has a much wider audience than just the few people that really know us, aren't most men likely to be seen as appropriating the work, as has been in this case? Personally, I think that if reposting feminist works is likely to be seen as a negative act, or if it has a good chance of being seen that way, men should not do it.

I saw your other thread about your DH at work, Buffy. His action, as relayed by you, can be taken as one of a man who did it for the right reasons. But, let's say the woman he spoke to, for whatever reason, felt uncomfortable with what he said. Imagine she posted the same story on here, and expressed it in a negative light. He would be seen in a negative light too, despite it not being intended that way. There are so many interpretations from even the simplest act.

[CaptainGrinch]

Would we say from this discussion that this chap has had an overall negative or positive effect?

That's going to be a bit hard to say overall unless you are in contact with his intended audience - some of whom may actually be his friends rather than strange work hanger-ons.

These friends will, presumably, know him outside of work and will be aware of any trials and tribulations that may have been going on in his or his families life.

They may take it in the spirit it is meant, whereas this discussion has been told he's an arsehole from the first post which effectively removed any neutrality from the discussion. On this board, he can't do right for having a penis, in real life he may well have had a very positive effect.

We'll never know.

[ArtetasSwollenAnkle]

I am reminded of the phrase 'better to keep quiet and be thought an idiot, than to open one's mouth and confirm it.'

[LauraBridges]

I really like it when men are feminists, even if they don't have children. What are we saying that they are not allowed to talk? That their views don't count if they are young or childless?

I also spend quite a bit of time seeking equality for men - 50% of time with children after divorce, right to stay home when babies come if they want without pressure from wives that men must work etc etc.

[LauraBridges]

I think it's more that I regard feminism as fairness so would equally want to help men as much as women. I've always felt like that.

I would change the law to 50% with each parent unless they agree otherwise or the court says otherwise. That would help ensure women can get back to full time work, improve their economic position and achieve positions of power rather than have them forced into a ghetto of no earnings and domestic life which can follow from having the children 24/7 with the father playing at parenthood for a few hours every other weekend and be fairer on all those men who want a real relationship with children after divorce.