Feeling conflicted about (childless) man's feminist views on mothering

[NomNomNom]

Hi,

I think this is one of my first forays into the feminist section, although I've been lurking. I was hoping to get your balanced and reasonable views on this.

Basically, I don't know what to think about this - my personal pissed-offness is clashing with my political views, I think.

I have this colleague who is in his mid-20s (I'm slightly older), childless, very well-educated, very right-on, yet he seems inexperienced in real-life matters. I don't like him for various reasons that are not really relevant. Mostly that he expresses vaguely political views when it helps him impress people in positions of power at work, but doesn't really know a lot about the actual issues and seems to put it on a bit.

Today he posted a video on Facebook of a kind of spoken-word performance by a young female poet/stand-up that was all about the physical changes motherhood brings and how women are great, strong etc for what they go through during pregnancy, birth and breastfeeding. It was a great poem, I really like it, and it expresses many things I think as well.

But somehow I'm really pissed off that this guy has posted it. He has nothing to do with children. He'll never go through those experiences himself. I often think he jumps on political bandwagons, so I don't know if my discomfort is to do with that.

I think if a dad had posted the video, I would have thought how lucky his partner is.

But somehow, a childless (privileged) guy doing it makes me angry. I've always been a feminist, but only found feminist approaches to mothering and the whole mothering/motherhood distinction a little while after my daughter was born. Reading blogs about feminist mothering, Adrienne Rich etc. really helped me to make sense of my situation and feelings, some of it was so eye-opening and just amazing. I really like how other mothers seem to experience the same issues as me and then write about it in a thoughtful and concise way, taking apart the challenges - it seems like a kind of almost intimate community of mothers (that sounds completely wanky and essentialist, I know!). I don't know how to explain it. So somehow, I just get the sense that this guy I know is 'doing' feminism in an almost consumerist way, putting it on - because feminist views on mothering have nothing to do with his life, so why is he posting about that?

I have to admit that I occasionally feel slightly conflicted about aspects of my feminism - e.g. the whole question of whether men can be feminists (though I read a great explanation regarding how one can perceive feminism as either shared political aims or shared experience). I'm still on the fence when it comes to those 2 views, but I suppose for me feminist approaches to motherhood are rooted in shared experience, and this guy does not share it, so he should butt out.

But on the other hand, more men should admire women for the strength involved in making a person and nurturing them, so… I just don't know!!

He isn't really talking about motherhood from his point of view he posted a video of a woman talking about it....

Nothing will tell you faster if he's genuine than treating him as if he's someone trying to learn who will appreciate seeing his feminist horizons expanded.

Like scallops says - this is a huge feminist issue. Childbirth and pregnancy are massive detriments to women's health. There are many feminist campaigns about this, notably in the US where the right to abortion is being eroded. If he's genuine, he'll see where you are coming from and will be right onto it. If he's not, he will witter on about female 'strength' and show himself up as a fake.

His post also seems lacking a bit in compassion or at least lacking in nuance. It is quite a definite statement to make about these issues. I would expect a man interested in feminism to at least have asked the question of his friends who have been through this as to whether this was a common experience. Or even a 'what do you think'? i.e. listening to women, interested in what they've got to say.

Just posting the video is him making a statement.

I think I'm conflicted too absolutely no use whatsoever am I

I do see why you would be a bit and I can't abide mansplaining and I guess it does depend on the person, for example when I was breastfeeding people might say well done to me and I would take it in the spirit it was intended but one male doctor said it in such a patronising way I was sure he was about to pat me on the head like the good little girl I clearly was

But it's still better that someone is spreading positive messages than not I think?

I know it's a bit different but I have been talking about feminism a lot with my teenage boys recently, just as subjects come up etc. ds1 posted some lyrics on his Facebook page that were ridiculing the way teenage girls are called 'sluts' and 'slags' if they are sexually active but teenage boys are 'players' and said that he found it stupid, wrong and sexist.

Ds2 posted about a local woman who was asked to stop breastfeeding in a public place and he was raging about it! He was so angry and when someone commented that 'he wishes more women would do it in public so he could have a sneaky wank looking at their tits' ds2 called him a 'pathetic perverted sexist moron' and blocked him

I have to admit I was pretty proud of them for both of those things but on the other hand reading this has made me think maybe they shouldn't be posting about experiences that affect women? I don't know, I find it difficult tbh

No, but you can tell, can't you, IAm?

It's hard to explain in words why you know one person is being sleazy and inappropriate and another isn't but that's what sleazy types thrive on - the fact they can claim innocence.

Yes I totally agree LRD, I know my example with the doctor was a poor one but that was what I was trying to (badly) say

But with my ds2 and the breastfeeding issue I can see why many women would be offended by a teenage boy posting about something that has affected them personally and maybe disadvantaged them when it's not something he ever has or ever will experienced. From his point of view he has experienced it though growing up watching me do it and thinking about how upset he would be if someone had upset me or stopped one of his siblings from being able to feed and so I think it does feel personal to him even though it isn't

My boys are typical teenage boys but I think if asked they would say they were a feminist (but certainly not an expert on it by any means) is that ok? Or is that wrong? I don't think I'm getting any of this right at all

Oh, I was absolutely agreeing with you.

I don't think many women would be offended by a teenage boy innocently posting something like that? It's on a different level, but I must post and say things all the time that people who have children quietly decide are rather naive. It's natural, and I do hope it's forgiveable.

Surely if you have teenage boys who are interested in all of this, that is positive? It is very unlikely (I think?) that they would move on from that to be the sort of man who makes women feel uncomfortable, which as I understand it is what the OP is describing?

Yes, exactly - it feels a bit like mansplaining. I absolutely do not think he would have posted anything about a negative experience of birth etc (well, this video was emphasising the hard bits but in an 'aren't we strong' kind of way) because I don't think he is that interested in mothering per se. He sees himself as a feminist and this was a way of showing people that he's a superior feminist because he's even into birth-y feminism. If I anyone tried to talk to him about this kind of thing, I'm quite sure he'd turn it into an argument about who knows more and has the more correct views.

Not sure about teenage boys posting about breastfeeding. I do think it's great that he's interested and defending mothers' rights, and if it's an aspect of his family life (he's seen you bf) then you can see that it's had a positive impact on him.

I realised that my colleague's word choice also irked me. (And this is where I probably am overthinking!)

He said something like 'Here's abc talking about motherhood and xyz'. The poem was about the physical experiences of pregnancy, birth and breastfeeding. Obviously that's part of motherhood. But at the same time, motherhood in my view is the collected minutiae of everyday life and the negotiation of power structures (who gets up in the night, who looks after the child's emotional needs/knows friends' names, who works part-time, job discrimination).

'Motherhood' isn't just the physical things, and while it's useful to look at both the physical and the everyday stuff from a feminist angle, I think they require different nuances of feminism and can't just be lumped together as 'motherhood'.

Does this make any kind of sense at all?!

So perhaps he really can be seen as someone who 'expects' women to be empowered by all the difficult things they go through, forgetting that not everyone is (and those mothers can also be feminists).

IAm, your DS2 was raging about a social injustice that he saw happening - I think if he'd posted "saw a woman breast feeding, isn't that great, wish all women would do it" that would be totally different , but he was calling out sexism just as he might have posted disgust at a racist football chant or something.

NomNom, I think if this had been one video he posted, you'd probably have been fine, but as it's in the whole context of him taking superficial political positions, you think it's pretty insincere.

Comment "I hope you feel just as strong when you push a baby out of your Fanjo" and add a PA smiley?

I think it would piss me off because he is using women's issues to try to make himself look good. And that is appropriation.

And as AF says, he probably wants a cookie and some young laydeez to swoon a bit at his manly empathy. Also coming from a man, the whole you women are so strong when you have babies thing comes across as a stereotype, a sexist one.

I would be tempted to post a comment saying that being strong during pregnancy is only the beginning and that "motherhood" is a sexist social construct which is used by society to subjugate all women regardless of whether they are mothers or not.

Except he's probably not worth it.

Not sure if it's exactly the same but I have a male friend who, when I was pregnant would go on about how beautiful pregnant women are, and always made a thing of saying 'you can bf in front of me, it's totally natural, a beautiful thing etc.'.

Ostensibly, that's lovely and kind. But, it just felt like pressure; another female role to perform. I did not feel beautiful, so if Id have had more energy Id have felt like a failure and bfing was blood and tears for a while.

So, while it's not quite the same, I understand what you mean OP.

Maybe we are being oversensitive and overthinking it and maybe he is well meaning (but you say he has form) but it is a sensitive topic and Ithink it's natural to feel bit territorial about it.

Support is welcome. Pressure and intrusion, not so much.

Can you post a link to the video please? :)

Yeah, I think it sounds like you just don't like the fact it was him that posted it, rather than any man expressing those opinions. It's just that you don't believe him because you don't like him.

Of course anyone, even childless, can have an opinion on parenting. We are TTC so talk about our opinions on parenting and motherhood most weeks but we don't have any children to know what that will actually be like. Those opinions might change but I would hate to think people wouldn't respect our opinions because we haven't experienced it yet.

I wouldn't have a problem with a man posting details of an exclusively female experience. I would hope it means he appreciates the sentiment, even if he can never fully understand it.

Would you be angry if a woman who hadn't had children had posted it?

Anyway, I am with AF. I wish to judge him without any prior knowledge of him, based purely on the OP's writings. He's a twat alright. My pitchfork is out. Which way did he go?

And those of you thinking he's trying to impress the laydeez - you don't know if he is straight, gay or asexual. How very heteronormative of you all.

I don't see an issue with his actual post. Anything anybody said about motherhood could be seen as a problem if said in the wrong context or if we assume it is the only perspective they hold on it. I think you're reaching to find a reason to criticise his post, op. If you, knowing him, think he is not a good person from your own experiences with him, you should trust that. It does not require everything he ever does to be negative; even a stopped clock tells the right time twice a day. And you are not required to like all people who express feminist views.

Thanks for all the helpful responses!!

I do agree that I just generally don't like him, and I always thought that I'd like most feminists. But yes, it's the insincerity of it all.

He is happily coupled up in a long-distance relationship, afaik, and not usually the type to try to impress the laydeez, or menz. More the type to try to impress superiors and pretend to be an expert in everything.

I was tempted to post a sarcastic comment, but it would be bad for the work situation (where he has also annoyed me this week by trying to take charge of something that's my role).

Double standards - gotta love 'em. This discussion confirms in my tiny brain that men are best keeping out of feminism altogether. Don't hinder, don't obstruct, and don't get involved. Anything you do will be dissected, second-guessed and extrapolated to the worst possible conclusion.

Out of interest OP, what involvement do the immediate superiors at work have in feminism? Is this going to gain their favour?

Question I assume he has a mother, does he have other female relatives he may have spoken to or may be pregnant? It may be has talked it through with female family members.

Because, Buffy, he has simply posted a video that I assume he found admirable in some way. How on earth does that mean he is telling anyone how to do anything?

And yet all sorts of shit has been read into this simple act, and people who don't know him have accused him of being a try-hard and a slime ball. Now imagine a young woman who had not had children had done the same thing. Do you think everyone would be dissing her? Because I don't. Nor do I think the OP would have it in for her.

As sausage said, how do we know he didn't discuss with his mum, or sister, or girlfriend? We don't. Didn't stop the knives coming out though.

If he's a twat, he's a twat.

If this video gets people thinking, it's a good thing. Regardless of who posts it and why.

Personal motivations rarely stand up to scrutiny. At least this action is positive. (Unless you are saying it would be iffy regardless of who posted it).