Amnesty International says laws against buying sex breach men's human rights

[DonkeySkin]

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2545003/Amnesty-calls-legal-prostitution-Charity-says-laws-ban-people-buying-selling-sex-breach-human-rights.html

The organisation is planning to adopt a position that calls for the full decriminalisation of the sex industry, including johns and pimps.

It is tabling a paper for its UK branch to vote on that says it is a human right for 'consenting adults' to purchase sexual consent from another person (regardless of the desperate circumstances that person may be in, presumably). The paper also devotes time to that latest favourite cover-all for sex-industry advocates, 'the rights of the disabled', as a reason to allow the continuing expansion of the global sex industry with no oversight or concern from governments.

Apparently the human rights of the (overwhelmingly) women and girls who are coerced, trafficked and enslaved inside the sex industry to satisfy the demand from men for paid sex are of no concern.

Oh, sorry - Amnesty does remember to devote a whole two words to this, conceding that prostitution takes place in an 'imperfect context'. That would presumably be the context of a worldwide patriarchy that devalues female human beings, denies them education, safety and fairly paid work, and tells men they have the right to use their bodies for sex regardless of their actual desires. Not to mention, systemic racism, colonialism and exploitative capitalism.

Good to know Amnesty is prepared to stand up for the most vulnerable people on earth - male sex buyers.

Here is that insane punter attitude again: Women are just like beer or pizza.

Yup - pop out to buy a beer and a woman, zeffa. We know your attitude towards us.

[weseeyou]

BriarRainbowshimmer - My tongue in cheek comment was aimed at those who's immediate (knee-jerk) reaction to anything of which they disapprove is to call for it to be banned. I don't regard women as being the same as beer but I am sure you know that anyway.

Zeffa, in your world, the "vast majority" of prostitutes:

• aren't vulnerable
• can decline to have sex with certain punters if - what? - they don't find them attractive
• are respected by their prostitutors
• can freely choose the sex acts they will and won't do
• would be able to jump up and leave their own client if a panic button was pressed in their shared workspace and would be able to stop that assault
• would be able to reach a panic button if being assaulted

Have I missed anything?
.

"Bribery is an act of giving money or gift giving that alters the behavior of the recipient. Giving money to a prostituted woman in order to buy her consent is therefore pretty accurately summed up as bribery, unless you're kidding yourself that she would fuck you anyway?"

In my uni art class, we had various nude models who were paid to pose naked in front of us for several hours. By your definition, that was "bribery", too. Except that it wasn't, of course.

As soon as you assume consent is given, you are in the territory of a service being provided for payment.

If you are going to argue for criminalising prostitution, assuming that there is no consent because the women's re trafficked is a better argument.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones - You have never met me yet you judge me. There are many conclusions I could draw about the people who post here but I never judge anyone until I have a true idea of their character. I have friends with whom I disagree, however I always make a point of attacking/debating the belief and not the person.

Having experienced too many of these threads, I just can't bring myself to contribute but I have been lurking.

Aren't you all tired of being talked at by this little man ? He isn't interested in a positive debate, he just wants to win on the internet.

HowardTJMoon - Would you like to tell me about your sex life? You are asking about mine so what is sauce for the goose is, surely sauce for the gander.

Fair question.

Currently I am single and effectively celibate as right now I don't have the time to pursue a relationship (I'm a single parent with a full-time job and also doing a Masters-level qualification; frankly, I rarely have the time to fart let alone go dating). I have dated since becoming a single parent but I found it impossible to devote the time and energy that a partner deserves so I've knocked it on the head for now.

I have had a number of sexual partners in the past, two as part of long-term relationships plus a few short-term flings. I have had a couple of one-night stands but I found them unfulfilling. I've never cheated on a partner nor have I ever pursued a new relationship while still entangled in another. I'm definitely a one-woman-at-a-time kind of guy and an emotional connection is important to me.

I do miss sex and intimacy. I'm hoping that once my children get older and more independent (which will roughly coincide with finishing my Masters) that I will have the time and opportunity to start dating again. It would be nice to find someone I can share my life with. However, if I don't then I'll just have to resign myself to never having sex again. I have never, and will never, pay for sex as I would never be able to look at myself in the mirror again.

So that's me. In return I'll repeat my questions for you:

Do you have a favourite prostitute? Do you think she regards you as one of her favourite clients? Do you see her socially outside of her bedroom/massage parlour/whatever?

And/or do you also pay to fuck women with whom you haven't yet had an opportunity to "build up a friendship"?

GarthsUncle - Yes, when properly conducted that is more or less the case.
Did you read the article, on Total Politics which questions many of the assumptions underpinning the Nordic model and those who call for it's implementation across europe? it is here, www.totalpolitics.com/blog/428222/a-response-to-mary-honeyball.thtml. The article is written by the man who runs The Ugly Mugs Scheme which helps to protect sex workers by circulating pictures of dodgy clients.

We judge you by what you have written here.

Blistory Sun - Funnily enough, that is just how I feel, that I am being talked at with the exception of one or two peoplewith whom I disagree but they are still able to conduct a civilised debate.

I know Blistory but I wanna win too!

Seriously, though, I do find reading and contributing to threads like this do help me organise and solidify my opinions on things as well as pointing me to a lot of information through links.

I find it interesting to be accused of "talking down" to people as this seems to mean that anyone who expresses an opinion contrary to the prevalent view on this thread is, by definition guilty of "talking down" to others and is vilified by them.

I don't see why zeffa's statement that he has to decline Dervel's suggestion because his is not gay is an answer.

Many prostitutes are lesbian and have to put up with male punters, so the fact that zeffa is not gay is no reason at all to reject Dervel's suggestion.

Who knows, having a few eager men penetrate him might give him a whole different perspective on what unwanted penetration is like.

On the other hand, I doubt zeffa has the guts to walk the walk, he can only talk…..

grimbletart - Most sex workers choose their occupation. I don't choose to be a sex worker so the issue doesn't arise. Sex work ought to be for those who choos eto engage in it.

In my uni art class, we had various nude models who were paid to pose naked in front of us for several hours. By your definition, that was "bribery", too. Except that it wasn't, of course.

Were they made to be there? Did they have a man in the background to whom they owed money perhaps? No, so not the same thing at all. Please reread the definition of bribery, it involves money changing hands in order to alter behaviour, do you have to coerce people who pose nude for art classes now?

I also don't want to criminalise prostitution, just the punters and pimps. No one on here wants to criminalise the women who are being exploited in this way.

Most sex workers choose their occupation.

For God's sake, if you really believe that most sex workers make a free choice to become prostitutes you are living in a parallel universe.

For every Pretty Woman type prostitute how many do you think there are that have been driven to prostitution as a last resort - to feed their kids, to pay off debts, to feed their drug habit, because they are pimped, because they have been abused..etc.

I'm guessing not too many girls grow up choosing to be a prostitute.

Choice is only choice if it is truly a free one. If it's out of desperation it is not a real choice.

Grimble, Zeffa believes all the following:

Zeffa, in your world, the "vast majority" of prostitutes:

• aren't vulnerable
• can decline to have sex with certain punters if - what? - they don't find them attractive
• are respected by their prostitutors
• can freely choose the sex acts they will and won't do
• would be able to jump up and leave their own client if a panic button was pressed in their shared workspace and would be able to stop that assault
• would be able to reach a panic button if being assaulted

GarthsUncle - Yes, when properly conducted that is more or less the case.

--
So yeah, choosy choice choice is all of a piece.

.

Yes GarthsUncle.

I believe it's called believing 6 impossible things before breakfast.

NRFT, but read enough..
If this is true about Amnesty, then it's seriously bonkers.
I have had nowhere near enough sex in the last five years. Din't realise my human rights were being violated. FFS.

Look, I have experience of the sex industry first hand. OK, I have worked in the sex industry-not as a prostitute, and not for some years, but I was in that world, and it's a dark place to be.
Firstly, no woman in the UK (who doesn't have a drug addiction) has ever needed to rent her vagina to feed her kids.
We have a reasonable welfare state. There are other ways of getting by. I am a LP, I have been really really poor, I have sold possessions, but going on the game would just not be an option for me. It wouldn't be an option for anyone who wasn't already pretty screwed up.
I knew many call girls ("escorts") and also strippers, many of them really intelligent, but I have never met anyone selling their body who didn't have some kind of fucked up backstory.
One of my friends, and ex stripper/sometime dominatrix, is incredibly funny-dorky, smart,well informed. If a punter spent time with her, he would think she was a strong, beautiful, fiesty woman having a ball.
She wouldn't tell him about the years of sexual abuse from her father and grandfather, and the trauma that came when her family didn't believe her, and branded her a troublemaker.
She is out of that life now, Thank God, but she is just one of the millions of girls and women who end up in that world because of shitty things that happened to them, which often mean they have MH problems that mean they can't hold down a regular job, they are addicted to cocaine, their self worth is so low they see their bodies as currency.
There are a myriad of things that keep women in the game, but none of them are things you would want for your sister.
I think something like 95% of sex workers have been sexually abused, many of them in Care.
I will tell you something else, too. I never met a sex worker who didn't hate men. I mean really fucking loathe them. They might fuck them, have a laugh with them, sure. But deep down, the woman gyrating on your lap, or sucking your dick and telling you what a big boy you are thinks you are scum.
So, yeah, maybe there are, somewhere, these mythical "nice girls stripping to pay for college", or hookers who just love sex, and hey! Who wouldn't like to get paid for something they love?Right??!
It's just that I never met one of them. Not even once.

If many posters on these threads say the same thing based on the women they know in prostitution or stripping. It won't be long til some punter comes along to tell you your experience is not representative because... Brooke Magnanti or some other bullshit.

Incidentally, I used to be a life model at an Art College.

the statistics on trafficking are obv difficult to verify, so to be fair, we'll accept yours that 8.7% are trafficked. That's 1 in 11. How many would be too many?

For me - one. But not for the Invisible Men apparently - a few suspect trafficking but carry on anyway

... nude models who were paid to pose naked in front of us for several hours. By your definition, that was "bribery", too.

"Were they made to be there?"

I suppose, yes. They presumably had a contract to honor, and if they didn't show up they would have trouble finding work with similar establishments.

"Did they have a man in the background to whom they owed money perhaps?"

Possibly. It is not something any of us can know. Many of us owe money, to a bank for mortgage or via credit cards and so have to keep working hard.

I am not trying to minimise the terrible situation of a trafficked woman, just pointing out that "bribery" has nothing to do with it. And neither do your questions of being "made to be there" (which can apply to many work situations) and owing money to someone (since most of us do).