Amnesty International says laws against buying sex breach men's human rights

[DonkeySkin]

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2545003/Amnesty-calls-legal-prostitution-Charity-says-laws-ban-people-buying-selling-sex-breach-human-rights.html

The organisation is planning to adopt a position that calls for the full decriminalisation of the sex industry, including johns and pimps.

It is tabling a paper for its UK branch to vote on that says it is a human right for 'consenting adults' to purchase sexual consent from another person (regardless of the desperate circumstances that person may be in, presumably). The paper also devotes time to that latest favourite cover-all for sex-industry advocates, 'the rights of the disabled', as a reason to allow the continuing expansion of the global sex industry with no oversight or concern from governments.

Apparently the human rights of the (overwhelmingly) women and girls who are coerced, trafficked and enslaved inside the sex industry to satisfy the demand from men for paid sex are of no concern.

Oh, sorry - Amnesty does remember to devote a whole two words to this, conceding that prostitution takes place in an 'imperfect context'. That would presumably be the context of a worldwide patriarchy that devalues female human beings, denies them education, safety and fairly paid work, and tells men they have the right to use their bodies for sex regardless of their actual desires. Not to mention, systemic racism, colonialism and exploitative capitalism.

Good to know Amnesty is prepared to stand up for the most vulnerable people on earth - male sex buyers.

I am not trying to minimise the terrible situation of a trafficked woman

yes you are.

The harm to women working in prostitution should be enough of an argument to criminalise punters and pimps, no matter what the true percentage of trafficked, coerced, drug addicted, desperate women is. I think it is on the high end - I know pro-arguers attempt to minimise the figure.

However there is damage to all women as well - damage to women's status in society. I agree with the premise of the Swedish model that women cannot have true equality in society whilst it is deemed acceptable that they can be bought for sex.

Many women will attest to the fact that they have, at some point in their lives been solicited for sex, as they are going about their normal business. I have been, someone upthread talked of having a pound thrown at their head and told they owed him a blow job, when she was 14 and in her school uniform. There have been threads about it. If AI endorse men's right to buy sex, they are indirectly condoning this type of harassment towards women.

Yes Sabrina. It affects us all so much. Our general status.

As I wrote on another thread (?) I used to live near a type of prostitution/sex industry district and experienced harassment in broad daylight by the men as a little girl. An entire part of the town was unsafe for the female part of the population. (well even less safe than usual, it was not like the rest was completely safe)

The sex industry also spreads the idea that sex is a service that women do for men. Instead of something two equal partners do together because they desire to. This affects relationships between men and women in general.

Erm no, I'm not. Your argument re "bribery" doesn't make sense. What I'm doing is explaining this to you.

As I said before, stick to the argument of saving trafficked women. Ridiculous arguments like "but this is how bribery is defined" do nothing but undermine your position which is, fundamentally, a valid one.

CoteDAzur: '"your questions of being made to be there" (which can apply to many work situations) and owing money to someone (since most of us do).'

It really makes me ill whenever people dismiss the coercion present in prostitution by saying, 'Well, everyone has aspects of their job that they hate', or 'Everyone has to do things they don't like for their work'. Except in this case, those things involve sex. Which, when someone doesn't want to do it but is compelled/coerced anyway because they have no real option to say no, is rape.

The difference is between being forced to smile at your asshole boss in order to keep your job and being forced to have sex with him.

Maybe you need to read the posts that sentence was referring to.

I wasn't dismissing anything about prostitution. I was answering the question "Was the nude model made to be there?", the answer to which was presumably "Yes, through her contact with the university".

I am not trying to minimise the terrible situation of a trafficked woman, just pointing out that "bribery" has nothing to do with it. And neither do your questions of being "made to be there" (which can apply to many work situations) and owing money to someone (since most of us do).

This is your whole paragraph. You state that 'bribery' is not applicable to prostitution, and neither are concerns about 'being made to be there' or 'owing money to someone' (because, you point out, this can apply to many work situations). So you are implying that these conditions should not be regarded as harmful when they compel someone into prostitution, because they are present to some degree in all paid work.

That was my interpretation of your meaning. If you meant something else, please explain.

HowardTJMoon - I see escorts who either come to my flat or, on occasions we will meet for a meal and/or a drink prior to returning there. All of the working girls have been at least 18-years-old, many of them older.
Money is, of course handed over but for me the encounter is about far more than obtaining sexual gratification. I prefer intelligent women with whom it is possible to have a conversation revolving around more than what is happening in Coronation Street.
I recently saw a student in the second year of her degree. She was sparky, humorous and intelligent. I enjoyed the evening very much. I will, I hope see her again.
I don't have any problems looking in the mirror. All the ladies I have seen are in full possession of their faculties and I have always respected their limits, (E.G. some working girls will not kiss which is their absolute right and I have, of course respected this).
Most established escort agencies will not discuss sex over the phone or by e-mail but it is an open secret that the overwhelming majority of escorts provide sex. The caution exercised by agencies and clients means that any ban on the purchase of sexual services will be virtually impossible to enforce where the service takes place in the privacy of a residence or hotel room. Possibly the authorities might set up fake agencies to catch clients (I believe this has happened in the United States) but I find it difficult to imagine this happening on a wide scale. Escorts will be reluctant to report customers who treat them with respect (there would be no reason to do so as the client is furnishing money so why would the worker kill the goose which lays the golden egg).
I have developed relationships of trust with working ladies and, having got to know me some have confided they have been abused in childhood. This is horrendous but where I to stop seeing the working girl there would be plenty of other clients to take my place. Many other girls have not been abused. The student I mentioned earlier comes from a loving home but has become entangled in debt hence her turning to prostitution. In the case of this young lady it was her first time, she was clearly nervous. I had told her prior to her meeting to think if she really wanted to provide a personal service and, again when she arrived at my home I told her she was (obviously) free to walk out the door. However she, as a consenting 20-year-old chose to provide sex, there was no coercion whatsoever entailed.
At present, as it is not a crime to pay for sex sex workers and clients can communicate more or less freely. For example some workers ask for a photograph of the client prior to meeting which I have, on several occasions provided. If the law changes criminalising those who pay for sex I, and others would be less likely to provide personal identifiable information rendering the lives of sex workers less safe. I am not going to harm a working girl but, unfortunately others will and criminalising payment will put more sex workers in danger.
I expect a barrage of abuse to descend on me for I am, to many on here "scum" (a word used several times to describe punters). I know that I am not scum, I feel comfortable in my own skin so for those who hate sex buyers go right ahead, tell me that I am an abuser of women, I know that I am not, I sleep well at night and that is what matters.
Incidentally all my close friends know that I buy sex. None of them purchase sex but they do not judge me for doing so.
Sex workers have posted openly on here so I can see no reason why buyers of sex should not do likewise provided they do so in a respectful manner.
I have committed no crime as the current UK law stands and I hope for the sake of both sex workers and clients that payment for sex is not criminalised.

Ew.

I feel the need to go and watch Mary Berry or something now to try and bleach that post from my brain.

You really can't see that you exploited that young student in debt, can you?

I was answering this:

"Bribery is an act of giving money or gift giving that alters the behavior of the recipient. Giving money to a prostituted woman in order to buy her consent is therefore pretty accurately summed up as bribery"

... which is quite clearly false. To everyone, I'd like to think. Paying a professional to provide you the service he is in the business of providing can't be called "bribery".

Separately, my point about "being made to be there" and "owing money to someone" was that those are not situations unique to prostitution, and as such, don't make for a strong argument.

The strong argument here is the trafficked women who are forced to prostitute themselves. This means there is no consent. And no consent means that there is a crime being committed.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones - I was open with the lady from the start of our communications and she had the opportunity to walk away at any point so, no I don't feel that I exploited her. Had I not seen her it is very possible she would have ended up with a client who was not so polite. At the end of the encounter she said, of her own volition that she was surprised that I haden't called her names or abused her. This choked me up somewhat and all I could reply was that I would never abuse anyone, that she was a valuable human being. Despite what you may think I don't regard women as sex objects. I was very aware of this young student's position and I treated her with kindness.

'Separately, my point about "being made to be there" and "owing money to someone" was that those are not situations unique to prostitution, and as such, don't make for a strong argument.'

Right, so you were saying what I thought you were saying when I responded like this:

It really makes me ill whenever people dismiss the coercion present in prostitution by saying, 'Well, everyone has aspects of their job that they hate', or 'Everyone has to do things they don't like for their work'. Except in this case, those things involve sex. Which, when someone doesn't want to do it but is compelled/coerced anyway because they have no real option to say no, is rape.

The difference is between being forced to smile at your asshole boss in order to keep your job and being forced to have sex with him.

Sorry everyone for the repetition of the point. But it bears repeating since some folks seem to find it easy to pretend they didn't hear it.

You did exploit her. She didn't want sex with you. She was in debt.

It really is that simple.

Sabrina - I placed an advertisement on the internet to which she responded. She responded as an adult. No force was entailed, there was no exploitation.

Of course you exploited and abused her. And you fucked her so that she didn't have to be fucked by some guy worse than you. What a hero.

I see now why you argue so vehemently about it zeffa - your whole self-worth as a human being is tied up in making these "no harm in prostitution" arguments. You cannot possibly admit to yourself that you have exploited a young girl.

Your behaviour is reprehensible.

FloraFox - I didn't get this young lady into debt. She did, I assume have choices other than sex work but she chose to become a sex worker. I don't believe that I exploited her but you, and others think differently which is your right.

I expect you think you helped her by fucking her when she didn't want sex, but was desperate for money.

I stand by what I said when I said this,

Bribery is an act of giving money or gift giving that alters the behavior of the recipient. Giving money to a prostituted woman in order to buy her consent is therefore pretty accurately summed up as bribery

Unless you're suggesting that prostituted women would still allow the men who exploit them to fuck them without the money being there?

If not, then paying them alters their behaviour, and is therefore bribery.

Sorry you fail to understand the power dynamic present within prostitution, and that, because of your failure to understand, you have minimised it.

A 20 year old student, in debt, and vulnerable.

Did you stop to think how she looks back on the encounter ? Do you think she reminisces fondly ? Or do you think she gags every time she thinks of what you did to her and what she was reduced to ? What a life lesson for her to learn that when you hit rock bottom, someone's always around to take advantage and benefit from your misery.

But again, as with all punters, as long as you got your rocks off. At least own your dirty, filthy little habit for what it is and stop dressing it up. We know you. We know what you did. As does she and every woman you continue to abuse for your own pleasure.

Ugh. I've an awful feeling zeffa is actually getting off on describing what he did on this thread.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones - I was a liberal well before I ever paid for sex. I have always believed in liberty and having read Mill's On Liberty that confirmed me in my beliefs. I have never taken hard drugs but I would defend an adult's right to do so.
To be frank if paying for sexual services is made illegal I think that it may well be the working girls who suffer more than the clients. As I said in the post which sparked your reaction, at present sex workers and clients can engage in relatively open discussion prior to meeting including the exchange of pictures. This can help to reassure the sex worker that she is not meeting a maniac. If the prohibition comes into force clients will be more jumpy and will not be so open meaning that workers are more at risk.

Mills believed in the rights of women. Unlike you.

Sabrina - I was wholly honest in my description as I wanted people to see how I, as a client see the interchange between sex worker and client. It took a lot of guts to right what I did but you are, of course free to construe matters otherwise.

You can't kid us that you care about the women, zeffa. You're just arguing for your own interest - that would mean you have a vested interest in the discussion. Like so many others that argue for the right to exploit women.