Massive feminist rant at my DP - Prego Hormones or warranted ?

[eepie]

Without meaning to 'check up' I saw on my Instagram feed that my DP had 'liked' or 'hearted' or whatever a picture that his friend had taken of a yellow "Slippery surface" sign next to a poster of a blonde girl with see-through vest on, pulling her knickers up/down. I told him I was really disappointed that he'd 'liked' this publicly and that he condoned that sort of imagery (he knows how strongly I feel about the representation of women in the media and about the casual sexual objection of women that is everywhere !) He's not usually blatantly pervy or I didn't think he had that sort of attitude to ogling women. He was raised by a single Mum and is generally not very 'laddish' (or at least has quelled his laddish comments around me which is nice I suppose) but today, at 17 weeks pregnant, seeing that he'd 'liked' this image just made my blood boil ! I felt like he was just a big school boy perve at that point and it was pathetic.

He didn't respond well to me saying I was disappointed to see he'd 'liked' it - he said he just thought the composition was funny and that I should stop being the thought police. I responded by saying that women deserve better than the way they are represented in the media and how they're thought of by men and that I felt very strongly that this image was double sexual objectification - a women pulling her panties down, then a man has taken a picture of that picture, next to a "Slippery Surface" sign - further objectifying her. I said I hated it when men snigger at women as sexual objects and that he is part of the problem if he thinks such a child-ish schoolboy perve image is funny. Obviously because I am pretty pregnant and hormonal and was feeling the pregnancy rage pretty badly at this point, I didn't get my point across in the calmest way, and he was pretty much dismissing my feelings at every turn and saying I was being silly which made my blood boil even more ! He thinks I should be able to just laugh at what is a 'funny image'......So we ended up having a huge row and I basically said "F**k you" and he needs to grow up. I also said that the reason I've ended up so angry and hurt is because he was dismissing my feelings when he knows how strongly I feel about the issue of the female image in the media.

I feel bad about the way the conversation went and how heated my response was....but also I need to have my feelings on this subject respected at least if not completely agreed with...and I want him to seriously think about this subject as I want to pass on healthy and positive attitudes towards women onto our child whether it's a girl or a boy..... How can I communicate this to him ?

Does he have to share your opinions or is he allowed to have his own?
If he is allowed his own opinions, is he allowed to share them publicly, if they differ from yours?

He has lots of opinions about women - and has no problem voicing how he thinks women should act, how much make-up or fake tan they should wear (none- tacky) whether they should be working Mums (yes definitely) how they should handle pain or having a cold ("man-up"), how good they are at all sports compared to men of course (slower and weaker always) he is 'allowed' to have his own opinions, I don't control him. What this post is about is just me venting that an opinion he has expressed has upset me. I feel it's disrepectful to women & child-ish. He is most definitely allowed to express his opinions and does a lot... Most of the time I accept what he thinks and let him speak and express his opinion. But pretty much every time I express a strong opinion (calmly or not) he thinks nothing of dismissing it as 'silly' and telling me I'm wrong. Pair this with me being pregnant and hormonal... Yes I am sensitive have even upset by this. I was looking for advice on how to communicate this to him calmly so he will understand me. He constantly dismisses my feelings and so we end up rowing a lot and it's really getting us both down. As much as I try and accept him and listen to him when he's talking (I make a conscious effort to do this regularly, not just in arguments!) I rarely feel he does the same for me and I just don't know if he'll ever 'get it' that belittleing someone's strong feelings and core values is a sure fire way to upset them and cause an argument.

Just saw your post and wanted to respond. From what I read, I find your second post with him dismissing your opinions etc really difficult. You want advice, I think you should repost in relationships, , there are great people there who will do that.

Honestly the people in relationships are fab

Not to get rid, but really they are great.

warranted

Leave the bast..... sorry, wrong board.

He thinks women in pain should man-up?

Does he also use the phrase ".... Like a girl" sometimes?

What does he say about "working dads"?

Will he be taking a share of the leave after your child is born, and what are your plans for splitting work and childcare?

Having re-read your second post, what do you actually see in this guy? Genuine question - what are his positive attributes?

"He has lots of opinions about women - and has no problem voicing how he thinks women should act, how much make-up or fake tan they should wear (none- tacky) whether they should be working Mums (yes definitely) how they should handle pain or having a cold ("man-up"), how good they are at all sports compared to men of course (slower and weaker always)"

So you KNOW he's a sexist prick.

Why are you helping this wanker replicate his defective genes?

"He has lots of opinions about women" Oh dear. And what you say further is making him sound very controlling. He isn't sounding very nice at all. Does he have opinions on how much wieght women should put on (or not) during pregnancy? Or how you should give birth and whether you should breastfeed? And what are his feelings on housework when you are on maternity leave (and beyond)? Because these things will give further indicators as to his feelings towards women and are going to crop up in the next few months. Seeing how he feels about these things now may save some heartache and battles in the future. If you can see up front what his feelings and expectations are, then you can make a decision about what you want to do.

The problem is that this is his attitude towards women. Attitudes are extremely difficult to change and he would have to want to change them, which, from what you have written sounds unlikely.

I think because I was very upset and angry about his attitudes to women yesterday - I did leave out some of his positive feelings about women and his positive traits of course... He's been incredibly supportive when I said I want to do hypnobirthing, breast feeding, and if not very emotionally supportive when I was ill in 1st trimester (he doesn't deal well with me being weak/ill/vulnerable - freaks him out I'm not entirely sure why) he was actually very practically supportive - he did most of the daily house work, shopping, tried to cook for me etc as I was working full-time as a nanny and incredibly tired, off my food, queasy etc. He definitely took up the slack on the housework and then some. He works freelance and so sometimes isn't working and when I've been working full-time and he's not, he does do a lot around the house. I don't think he really deep down is through and through a 'sexist prick' as someone has said... But some of his attitudes about women are worrying and upset me. He has been amazing in telling me that I shouldn't worry about how much or how little weight I'm putting on... He's massively against boob jobs and prefers the natural look - doesn't think stretch marks are bad at all etc. He seems to really like 'natural' women if you know what I mean but then can't seem to deal with women (or me) when I show strong emotion, strong opinions or am vulnerable and weak ie. when I'm ill - every time I've injured myself, been ill with a cold or virus in the time we've been together which has been maybe 3 times - he's freaked out... Been rubbish about giving me sympathy and ended up telling me to man up! And I have not been milking it as I said I'm hardly ever ill and due to the nature of my job even if I was I'd usually go to work anyway. I took half a sick day in my 1st trimester and about 3 further sick days this year. Sorry slightly off topic but just trying to explain to the posters who've asked about his positive side (great with kids, funny, loving, intelligent, creative) and about his - sometimes conflicting and confusing attitudes to women. I think maybe this comes from such conflicting messages about women that came from his Mum maybe - she was a single working Mum ...who brought up 3 boys (no daughters). But then she's said stuff to me like "girls just aren't very good at.... And they shouldn't even try to be!" And shares his opinion that women will always be weaker and slower than men when it comes to any sport.... I know she's probably talking about professional athlete vs professional athlete but it made me so mad ! It's a massive generalisation and seemed so sexist to me ?!?! She's a very nice but very contradictory woman.

Well, the bell curves overlap but yes, an elite man will beat an elite woman in many sports, as will an average man beat an average woman. There are a few - extreme distance running, I think - where that isn't the case.

But so what?

As you say eerie, our opinions are shaped by our upbringing. You would hope, though, that an intelligent adult would eventually come to see his mum's attitudes for what they were. What is he like with men who are ill - equally unsympathetic? If so, it's a sign of a lack of empathy rather than deliberate sexism.

"he doesn't deal well with me being weak/ill/vulnerable" Another red flag, I am afraid.

I am with Doctrine too? Why does it matter if women aren't as fast or as strong as men in sport? He doesn't compete against them! Unless of course he feels that is an indicator that women are weaker and slower in all areas of life? And for that I point you back to the bit I quoted.

eepie, sorry to hear you haven't been having an easy pregnancy.

I think I recognise some traits that your dp has. I have had two long relationships with two different men who I thought at first were pro-feminist, because they didn't expect me to behave weakly or in blatantly stereotypical girlie ways. However they had very fixed ideas of their own about what women were for, which was not necessarily to giggle and wear make-up, but to be tough, self-sufficient, not cry, put their needs last, do lots of work in and outside the home, and never ever be vulnerable, and always be the rock. They were both brought up by single mothers who had no choice but to be very, very strong and had internalised an image of women that was very sexist in its own way: women have infinite resources, to look after the men in their lives, but do not waste them on painting their nails or shopping for shoes.

I mistook all this for a long time because I was pitifully grateful that someone would put up with me - because I was logical and argumentative I thought I was too difficult for most men. Actually looking back I always know instinctively not to apply logic or argument to them and was very careful to suppress my own emotional - even physical - needs at all times.

I think you will need a lot more support from this man if you are having a child, a lot more than he is prepared to give. It sounds as if he will expect you to do everything child-related and everything else as well. Has he said "you are pregnant, not ill" yet? How is he when you cry?

I am sad for you. He sounds the type who will only listen to someone else- is there anyone else who can get him to understand what he needs to be to you?

So is he allowed, to express an opinion publicly, that you disapprove of, or do you expect him to keep that opinion to himself for fear of offending you? Bearing in mind that he was not expressing that opinion to you or about you, you just happened notice something that someone else posted, that he liked.

I think you are well within your rights to express that you find certain opinions or pictures offensive, but I don't think you can expect him to agree with everything you think, or never express publicly, something that he thinks, but knows you won't like.

He has a right to express his feelings and opinions, even if they are opposed to your feelings and opinions.

eepie - saying 'like' to that photo is probably something a teenage lad would do. He was silly and thoughtless and he won't do it again. He needs to mature a bit, but he isn't basically a bad bloke.

He sounds like he has quite a 'traditional working class' view of women deep down. He likes women who are like his Mum basically. Who from the sound of things was quite stoic, independent and self reliant herself. She probably doesn't like people fussing about illness, thinks that men and women have different roles but should both go out to work, that men are physically stronger than women and therefore women should not try to be like men. My mother is/was the same. I don't like fake tan, boob jobs and such like neither.

That said, I think you need to move on as he undoubtedly knows he has done the wrong thing. You were angry with him, he was defensive and probably embarrassed. Nothing more will come of dragging it out. He sounds like he will step up to the plate when your baby is born which is the main thing.

"He has a right to express his feelings and opinions, even if they are opposed to your feelings and opinions." And where has anyone said he isn't?

It is funny how a woman disagreeing with a man's perspective is translated to "you expect him to keep that opinion to himself ". Err no.

Having respect for women is fairly fundamental to haivng a relationship with a woman. It is perfectly understandable that eepie wanted to discuss that and why he feels it is OK to have those views.

He can do what he likes. She doesn't have to agree with what he does and reserves the right to call him out on his sexism. She also doesn't have to put up with it from a man she is in a relationship with.

Are you OK, OP?

TheDoctrineof2014 - Thanks for asking, I'm ok now...things have calmed down and we're getting on well. I think my DP is freaking out a bit at the moment about being the main provider...and about his new role as a Dad but I suppose that's normal to have a few bad days of doubting how you're going to handle it.

DuskandShiver and MoreBeta I feel have really hit the nail on the head here.....my DP has had that strong female role model in his single Mum upbringing which has been great in some ways but in others it's given him a false idea of what women should be like at all times - the rock, doing a lot of work inside and outside of the home, never being vulnerable etc which has been really hard for me as although I am very independent (have supported myself pretty much 100% financially since I moved out of home when I was 17, have always worked, not shied away from hard work eg nannying, cleaning jobs if I had to) I also do need some degree of emotional support especially now that I'm pregnant - sometime he's alright at dealing with this and will say the odd really comforting and sensitive thing and I feel like he really gets me and he's supporting me emotionally but the majority of the time I feel it really irritates him and disturbs him when he sees me being emotional or irrational and needing to be comforted or reassured. Which has been happening much more often since one of my best friends died in a car crash in July, and then since I fell pregnant in October....I suppose he's been having a sharp learning curve as to the inner workings of women that he's had hidden from him by his Mum (who doesn't show emotions but the occasional time she has, it's devastated him) and this is most definitely the most serious relationship he's had to date - as in - I live with him, he's being put in the role of father and of provider (at least for a few months) and suddenly he needs to think of me and the baby as priorities rather than just himself, which he's been used to for a long time. He never grew up with any sisters (my brother however told my DP at Xmas that I was actually really chilled during my hormonal teenage years, compared to my brother's girlfriend and my DP was surprised to hear that it's normal to occasionally have to deal with a storm of emotions from the woman you live with - but I LOVED my brother in that moment for saying that as it proved to me DP that actually I am pretty well adjusted and my mood swings are only normal!) My DP did however have pseudo-sisters... strong female friends who he's grown up with in the neighbourhood and who've had kids and worked and sometimes been single mums and he's only seen them being strong and dealing with stuff really well and being really hardy, as of course he hasn't lived with them every day and seen that they may have a softer more emotional side too with needs.... I don't think he's actually got close enough to a woman in a life partner kind of way to see all the ups and downs. And it still freaks him out to see a woman who has needs and strong emotions.

I'm trying to be patient with him and just focus on my side of things - listening to him, accepting him, giving him space to be himself and settle into this new role that he's in. I think he's getting to know more and more that I am my own individual with needs and foibles as well and that if he wants to be in a relationship with me he needs to learn to accept those things.

and Scallopsaregreat - Thank you - yes that's what I wanted to feel - that he DOES have respect for women....And yes I guess what happened is in my hormonal state I really properly called him out on his sexism rather than just rolling my eyes and tutting and ignoring like he expected me to.... He even said "Couldn't you just have rolled your eyes...no need for a shitstorm!" Which is kind of true...I could have done...but I felt so strongly in the moment that he was being a pig and it suddenly amplified every other attitude he's ever communicated about women that I've found worrying or unhealthy. So big explosion ! ha. And yeah I really wanted him to question his initial response that it was 'funny' and think deeper....as in actually...is he contributing to a really corrosive and sexist attitude towards women by condoning this imagery or joining in with 'liking' it online...especially if we have a daughter, but I guess the same applies to a son as well...he will need to think about what messages he's sending out to our child about gender roles in society and about respect and respecting women as well. I don't want us to perpetuate unhealthy attitudes that we have been exposed to growing up, courtesy of the media, for the next 20 years of our child's life ..... I think becoming a parent is a really good chance to grow and examine yourself as a person and think about what values you want to instil in your child and how to empower them etc etc....

Anyway ! Everything is fine..... It's a process. His attitude to women is not the most healthy...but I think he's learning and accepting me more. And also it's not the most awful and sexist attitude either. I'd love for him to not be scared and freaked out by my softer, needier side of my femininity but for now I guess it just says more about how he feels about himself right now than how he feels about me. Got to try not to take it personally as all I can control is my own behaviour and attitudes.

Why is he going to be the main provider? If he's freelance and at home surely it makes more sense you work full time and he minds the baby?

Glad you are making progress.

Have you discussed how you will be sharing childcare?

Laura - I used to work full-time as a nanny for 3 kids but recently finished that job as I was considerably stressed, exhausted, and didn't want to continue working like that whilst pregnant. I am definitely not going to go back to being a nanny after the baby - as I don't fancy looking after other people's children whilst missing out on my baby's 1st year..... I now work 2 or 3 days a week as a Photo Assistant/P.A and can hopefully resume that job after a few months at home with my newborn...it's a flexible job and I can work from home sometimes.

My DP sometimes works every day of the week (very intricate work where he couldn't have a baby around), sometimes works nights, and some weeks he hasn't got much work going on at all (which is what worries him), so we will just juggle childcare when we get to that point.
I'm obviously not earning as much in this part-time job as I was as a nanny full-time (although am trying to find extra bits of work to fit around this job) so he's picking up a bit of the slack already financially and he will be the sole provider for the household for a least a few months as I'm not sure I will get maternity allowance if I started this job whilst I was already pregnant? And it's part time ?
Plus our house-mate will be moving out in May to make room for the baby so that's a big chunk of my DP's income that will be gone which he has had coming in every month for 5 years or so as he's always had a house-mate to help with mortgage.

Oh and I will say though, we've been hugely lucky in that we won't have to buy many large things for the baby as we have been given so much stuff from other people ! Cot bed, slings, newborn car seat, clothes, toy box, rocking horse, breast pump, steriliser, changing table, sheepskins, door way bouncer, baby gym play mat thing. So hopefully we're not going to be crippled with costs in the first year...just normal household bills and food and nappies.

Are you both on the mortgage and house deeds, OP?

By the way, you could be a nanny with own child (NWOC).