The Feminist Pub - come in and chat.

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

This is something like the fourth pub chat thread - please pull up a chair at the bar. Everyone welcome.

Old thread is here: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/1920422-The-Feminist-Pub-continued?

But it's pretty much full so welcome in.

Ouch Buffy. I did that last year, but luckily it was round the corner so at least it wasn't in full view of the entire school and my dignity was preserved. And having done that I am now permanently surprised that kids don't howl more when they fall over. It's bloody painful, isn't it? Hope you are OK now.

Can I join your party? Been away from MN for about 5 years but I'm dipping my toe in the water again and I my brain could do with a bit of feminist debate (non-existent in the playground and I work by myself!) I also need to get away from FB because it drains me.

Of course, welcome in.

buffy - ouch! Sorry to hear that.

I'm bored. Can I just sit in the pub and drink imaginary champagne?

I've just finished another Sara Paretsky book...

Drinking on a Tuesday night ? Think I might join you as I seem to be getting a little up my own arse otherwise.

It is Tuesday, isn't it ?

I'm sure it is Tuesday. But I have been known to be wrong before.

Can I rant? It's not terribly boredom-alleviating but I could do with it.

I am so fucking sick of the way DH handles it when he hasn't done something properly. If he does something really minor, like not washing something properly and putting it on the draining board with food bits still on it, I can't comment on it or he makes it into a huge issue. Sometimes I just don't have the energy for another forty rounds of 'but I did it right!' so I just don't comment. I know this is not terribly good.

This time, I didn't comment. I just picked up the pan to wash it again, and he has made a great big fuss, until I said 'look, it was dirty, it needed doing' and he countered with 'it wasn't dirty'.

He knows this really pisses me off. He knows its gaslighting. But he always does it. And I'm just getting so bloody sick of it.

It's not the thing he's done/not done that bugs me, it's the response, which is a knee-jerk 'I can't believe I did anything wrong even when it's right in front of me'.

Ooh, I have a list of stock responses - which one would you like ?

LTB
Poor man, can't do right for doing wrong
Stop moaning, how lovely to have a husband that helps
Men just don't see dirt the way women do

Seriously, rant away, I can see why it's frustrating. Do you think he understands or does he just tune you out ?

That made me smile, anyway.

I dunno why he does it. If I did ...!

Thing is, I believe him when he says he knows it's annoying, too. But he then doesn't change, so it's tricky.

I have a very dear, but rather un-feminist friend in RL who once saw us go through this exchange and she was absolutely shocked that I was so 'mean' to him in that I didn't seem to just want an apology, I actually wanted him not to go into the routine of denial in the first place.

God LRD, you have totally described my dad. Drives me utterly up the wall.

Does he deny all failings or just 'female' tasks. My father will swear blind it wasn't him who read the map wrong/wasn't his fault he scraped the car etc too.

I think he's particularly inclined to do it with cleaning, but possibly I am fairly inclined to notice that.

Your post about maps (how infuriating!) reminded me of the dad of my school best friend - one time I went on holiday with them, and we were all lost wandering around Mont Saint Michel. So she says, I remember, it's left here, and her dad ignored her cos he thought he was right. And then we had to go back, and she said quietly 'see, I was right'. And he absolutely blew up.

I spent a lot of time on that holiday tiptoeing around wondering quietly why on earth he was such a massive arsehole.

So there are levels to it, I do know.

I have it on good authority that if men ever admit they are wrong, the world will disappear in a puff of smoke.

Maybe men are conditioned to believe that it's emasculating in some way to ever admit they are wrong. I know some women do it too but there must be something to it given how many men seem to have a problem with it.

My ex used to blame his work - he was the boss and couldn't switch off from that mindset when he came home. You don't admit to junior colleagues that you're wrong apparently. He never really understood that I wasn't a junior colleague. Nor did he understand that I was also the boss but had a very different mindset about managing.

I'll add You are just so Controlling - Men would help far more if they were just left alone to do it Their Own Way.
Also be sure to give him a bj cup of tea to show you appreciate his help.

That's a really shitty way to work, apart from anything else.

Thanks sal. I'll call bingo in a moment, someone just remind me I can always leave things dirty if I don't like the way he does it (and yes, he was washing up pans from my lunch not his, and yes, it is very good that he lifts a finger. I know.)

A rant is no harm.

My Dh is taking his time at the shop and here I am waiting for my KitKat

Now that's unreasonable

Entirely. You would be justified in Wrath of Feminist as a response.

Ha! Now there's a problem I don't have because DH is more anally-retentive attentive re cleanliness than I am . I must irritate the hell out of him. But to be fair to me, if he points out something is 'cleaned' is not actually clean and it is in fact not actually clean rather than it being imaginary dirt invisible to the human eye, I will mumble 'sorry' and wash it again. Hm.

Sympathies, LRD, though - that does sound v irksome.

Well, I just wrote a long bit about DH and deleted it again - 'tis too boring. But basically it is about my impression that when he has been away any length of time, he has to kind of assert his 'ownership' of the house by finding fault with my house keeping in an exaggerated way. It's like a dog cocking his leg to mark territory - "The living room is ruined; the boys have trashed it", implying I did not supervise or tidy well enough. Inevitably, there is nothing wrong. I now know this and don't react to these predictable rants.
The funny thing is, if there is a mini-domestic crisis (think Ribena on beige carpet) he is v hands-on and pragmatic about fixing it and not at all precious, thank the heavens!

Men. Who'd have'em.
Just how I feel about babies. And I had 4 [needs head examining]

I'll wait til I have the Choc safely in my hot sweaty paw.

Blistory No wonder you handed in your notice...er I mean broke up with him.

Blistory, it is a running joke between us that DH will concede, at a push, that he was 'not right', but he is never 'wrong' .
Nor is my father.

I, otoh, am always right because I am alway right .

Bizarre, isn't it ?

I never needed him to actually say that he was wrong, just like LRD it would have been nice if he had simply corrected whatever he had done wrong/badly. No big drama.

I'm always right too but I simply seethe inwardly in a fit of self righteous pity as saintly as I am. And then get surprised when no one recognises and rewards my saintliness.

Oh yes, unrecognised saintliness - 'tis a cross we bear with dignity, isn't it?