The Feminist Pub - come in and chat.

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

This is something like the fourth pub chat thread - please pull up a chair at the bar. Everyone welcome.

Old thread is here: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/1920422-The-Feminist-Pub-continued?

But it's pretty much full so welcome in.

I am not saintly.

LordCopper, which is the first Warshawski novel? I'm nearly at the end of my Val McDermid binge...

I need a pint if cider.

So I mentioned to a colleague that I am doing a course on domestic violence and abuse, and she reared up and said she needs to address that. So I left her my copy if Bancroft to browse through.

Definitely need a pint.

Good morning!

Doctrine I don't know which one is the first Warshawski novel - I just get whatever there is from the library. It's OK to read out of order. For a serious pedant I surprise myself sometimes.

I am of course always right, but I do recognise that there are other so-called intelligence who think otherwise, and usually I'm too stuck-up lazy to correct them.

Reading your posts, LRD, makes me realise I tend to react a bit like your DH with regards to my DH pointing out if I have missed something. Usually, I say 'oops' and redo whatever it is. But sometimes instead of Hang on, you missed a bit I hear You are a horrible slattern who is terrible in every way!.

This is not DH's fault, he is a v. straightforward sort of man who means 'You missed a bit' and there is no moral judgment behind it. This is the fault of my upbringing where everything has a moral judgment behind it. If you are not good at something straightaway, you are a failure at that thing and should give up.

Case in point, I was talking to my mother about a newfound interest in chemistry and possibly going back to study it when the children are older and her response was 'Oh, I don't know if that's a good idea. You never did have aptitude for science'.

So I suppose I am wondering if your DH comes from that sort of background and that is why he reacts so strongly. It doesn't excuse said behaviour, of course, but it might go some way to explaining it.

Terraria, I "hear" those kinda if things too, for similar reasons.

'If you are not good at something straightaway, you are a failure at that thing and should give up. '

That sounds exactly like DH quoting his mother - so I tend to attribute his reactions to 'criticism' to that rather than his gender. I'd be really interested to know if there is an approach which you find more tolerable.

I wonder also if this fits in with the pervasive societal idea that housework is women's work.

My DH is better at housework than I am, he really is. He sees more so he does more. But he was also brought up that way and I wasn't. So I am having to learn new skills. But when he says ' you missed a bit', I also hear a slur on my abilities as a woman even though that isn't what he means at all.

Errol, actually, I own that this is my issue and I am getting better, but DH often reminds me that he is not my mother so there is no moral judgment and that helps.

Thanks Terraria - I do sometimes say something like that but unfortunately he doesn't always hear it how I mean it!

Eek, kickass. I'm guessing the moment for pints of cider has gone, but that sounds a bit scary. You mean 'address' as in find fault?

terraria - that's an interesting point. I do think he interprets it as a much bigger criticism than I mean. I will admit, I have very little patience for the idea that this is something to be 'good' or 'bad' at - cooking a steak, there you have a point where one person feels it's done and another doesn't. Cleaning a pan, well, really, it's either clean or it's not. There's not a lot of room for making out you needed special aptitude to do it properly.

I think that argument quickly tails into the 'men don't see dirt' fallacy.

I do know what you mean about that sort of negativity, though, and I can imagine it is not fun. To be fair, I think DH and I were both more brought up with the 'if you're not good you'd better get good' kind of parenting.

Give it time, Errol. It has taken me two years to even figure this out and I am only just starting to be abl. A lifetime of conditioning takes a long time to get over.

I have also found that thinking about my DCs helps. I don't want my daughters to think there is anything behind my words or that if they are not good at something they should give up even if they are enjoying it.

So I am trying to model my own behaviour accordingly.

aargh, too soon-just starting to be able to remind myself that dh says what he means.

LRD, I wouldn't know about steak-DH and I are vegetarian. But I agree with your point about housework not being something to be good or bad at; you just have to do it.

I agree with you about the fallacy and that is kind of what I was getting at. There is an idea that women innately have these skills- I hate that I feel the way I do, that I am somehow less of a woman because I am the one who has trouble seeing dirt and that I have to learn these skills. And I know why I feel it, but I feel it nonetheless.

But if you and DH were brought up with the you'd better get good at x then our situations are different so what works for us may not work for you.

Oh, no, I didn't at all mean to suggest what you said wouldn't work, terr. I was just trying to think it through, really. It does make sense, completely.

buffy - depends, is it a boy Staffie?

Seriously, that is annoying and rude. I actually like dogs a lot, but I've got into the habit of doing scared body language in front of one woman because otherwise she will invariably let her labs jump all over me. And they're nice dogs but I don't actually want mud on my jeans.

I know you didn't mean that- that wasn't how I took it. See, I'm getting better already .

Buffy, that sounds like bad dog ownership to me. But I think your reluctance to call him on it might be a bit of a feminist issue. Aren't women taught never to make waves, keep quiet, not make a fuss, etc

Bloody rude of the dog owner.

I find that if I'm walking my own dog, I would be much more likely to say something but that's because I'm not a woman but a dog walker at that point.

On my own, I'm just a woman on my own confronting a strange man.

Not quite sure I understand why I feel that way

I love the bingo card of responses - so spot on!

I often wonder what I'd do if I was in a relationship. The nearest I get is when my DDad comes to visit (usually for a week or two at a time): we have a split where I cook and he washes up (and quite frequently peels veg). Now sometimes it isn't brilliant - but the thing is, in his case I know it's not because he's being half arsed about it, it's because he quite literally doesn't see the dirt - because he's 74 and his eyesight is going! And (equally importantly) when I re-wash something he just says "oops, sorry, missed a bit", doesn't try to pretend it was alright in the first place or that my standards are crazily high. As you say, a rational person accepts that a dish is either washed properly or it isn't - it can't be a little bit washed.

So it's (what seems to me at any rate - apologies if I've got your post wrong) your husband's immediate response of "deny, shift blame" that would piss me off, I think. And I honestly don't know what I'd do. Now I'm a crusty old bat in my late forties, if I ever got into a live in relationship, I'd call them on it very first time it happened. But I know that back in my twenties and thirties, I wouldn't have had the nouse to spot what was happening right from the outset - I'd have known that it pissed me off, but not been able to articulate why it was so annoying, and I'd have known that using the word "nag" in response to any attempt to get them to do it better would send my blood pressure through the roof, but again, not precisely why. And then, by the time I could see exactly why it was so bloody annoying, the behaviours would be so entrenched that I couldn't call them on it.

I think now, from my crusty old bat (COB - could that be a good acronym) perspective, the conversation might go: first piece of bad washing up, polite request to redo it nicely with reminded that not only am I not there to do all the washing up, I am not there to be quality control manager either. Any attempt to dodge blame (ooh, I'm not good at doing dishes, ooh, I was going to do them properly, but just needed to watch XYZ on telly first) would be met with "imagine a colleague tried to use this sort of excuse to avoid doing stuff." Any use of the word "nag" would lead to a feminist discussion of the misogynist overtones of the word "nag". Further argument would lead to them being introduced to the front door. But that's only because I've read a lot of Mumsnet and watched a lot of friends' partners shirking domestic jobs (I also have a lot of friends in fabulous relationships who've modelled how things should be). As I say, back in my twenties and thirties I wouldn't have been able to see the "strategic incompetence", "gaslighting", "blame-shifting" and use of the "N" word for the bullshit they were.

Terraria, my DH is great at not doing the same thing to our DD. e.g., he never had any music lessons because 'you're no good at music' . So DD is doing flute lessons because she still wants to - she's enjoying it and learning something from it even though objectively she's not musically gifted (and doesn't practice enough). He says when something sounds nice and STFU otherwise!

Buffy, live up to your name and ask the man not to let his dog jump up. It doesn't have to be confrontational. I'm actually not bothered about paw-marks myself, but DD went through a stage of not liking dogs (esp sharp-clawed pups) jumping up at her so I'd have no hesitation asking the owner to avoid it happening (hmm... she lion?) - or telling the dog 'sit' or 'down' myself, which is always worth a shot.

Yeh I reckon I would tell the dog off (if I was with my dog) but probably would deal with it by glaring at the owner if I wasn't. Not very assertive tut tut.
I actually just came to the pub to see if buffy was here as I wish to applaud her use of the rhetorical device "so ner" on another thread here. Awesome .
While I am here I may as well have a swift half too. Hope you are all having a lovely feminist week!