The Feminist Pub - come in and chat.

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

This is something like the fourth pub chat thread - please pull up a chair at the bar. Everyone welcome.

Old thread is here: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/1920422-The-Feminist-Pub-continued?

But it's pretty much full so welcome in.

Women are statistically better drivers than men, that's why until recently we used to be able to get lower insurance premiums. Somewhat more parking prangs, but less serious accidents. On the 'was anyone hurt' metric, way ahead.

The problem is that blokes tend to be much worse passengers than women.

I think I'm a better driver than dh but I get car sick and bored so let him drive, then I can sleep. I think if him as the chauffeur rather than being in charge.

Oh and having read the 20 things, is it safe to say here that I just don't get the whole gushing over babies thing? I can easily play with babies and enjoy getting them to smile but there is no tug at the heart strings or a need to cuddle them. I make no apology for that.

The 20 things is great - I can identify with some more than others, but entirely agree with the sentiment of not being apologetic for something that just is.

Re driving: I am as good a driver as anybody, as is DH. DH does a fair bit of our driving as a family, simply because he loves driving wheras for me it's just something that gets me from A to B. I don't love it, I don't loathe it and if he volunteers himself, all the better. Like you, kissassangel, I sleep . Or navigate (despite being a female, I can actually read maps ) or throw sweeties at assorted children in the back to keep them happy at certain intervals.

I've had the whole "what? You get your own fuel?" "you take your car for its service/MOT yourself?" "You know how to check your oil?" from my dad. The man who taught me how to do all of the above. 'Tis v strange.

But then again my father is the man who encouraged me to do well at school, go to university, pursue a professional career etc etc (just as he did with my brother), but has been deeply unhappy about the fact that I've continued working 40+ hrs/week since I've had children (in spite of the fact that that counts as part-time... ).

I've had that conversation with him: if he really feels 'a woman's place is at home' 'children need their mother more than their father' 'children suffer when both parents work' (and of course the man is likely to be the higher earner, so mum should be at home), then why on earth bother to put me through higher education?? I genuinely don't get it - the way he talks now, you'd've thought he'd've sorted a Swiss Finishing School for me so I could've been prepared for a marriage with a rich man and being his bit of arm candy. V odd.

Babies are so-so. Not my favourite thing ever. Definitely don't want to hold one of them for fun though. They either poo on you or dribble on you or scream in your ears. No consideration at all.

I get car sick too! Have always been like that. One of my childhood memories is being sick on the journey to see grandparents.

I quite liked babies for a short while after having mine, but I'm much more likely to want to hold a puppy than a baby.

NO not a puppy! Can I not apologise for not liking animals near me? I don't mind admiring from afar, but not within pawing or licking distance. No no no.

I've always loved babies. I tend to avoid them as much as I can now though because I really want another one and dp doesn't, so cuddling babies makes me a bit sad. I don't love them as much as my dad or my male friend who can't walk past a baby without stopping to talk to them.

I definitely don't get the urge to cuddle small animals. Other people can cuddle them and I'll watch from a polite distance if it's all the same to everyone.

Babies are overrated . As is motherhood in general IMVHO. puppies otoh....

Big grrr from me.

Checked DS (Year R) book bag on way home from school today. Book of the week 'Princess and the Pea.

Issue 1: Why the F is the cover all pink and glittery? Isn't it about a prince mainly? Ok, don't get me started on the prince who decides he needs a wife....
Issue 2: DS said 'I don't want to read that!'. When asked why, he said 'because it's for girls!'.

Jeez! This is what I send him to school for?????? How do they learn this stuff in a classroom where there are both sexes with a female teacher who is only 25, so surely has a good, equalist view on life???

I don't much like babies (except my own) or puppies. Do I win a prize?

I like babies. Although I have noticed that slightly maternal childless women tend to, so this is not particularly surprising.

However, I am put to shame by DH. He isn't as keen on reproducing as I am, but show him someone else's baby and he's grinning like a loon and trying to get it to smile at him. He's got my niece eating out of his hand.

So I am not sure what stereotypes we exhibit really.

penguins, what about eggs?

Pacific, I will never understand that kind of shit. Like my uncle who massively supported my education and professional life but seemed baffled I wasn't taking DH's name. So, would he have changed your name 10 years into his career, hmmm?? I think not!

Basket, that kind of thing drives me nuts, too
Here I am, trying to teach 4 boys that boys AND girls are people first, before they are 'boys' or 'girls' and then they are forcefed that kind of shit at school. By young, female teachers!

Doctrine, I get v confused about what my name is tbh . I kept my own name for professional reasons, as mother-of-my-children I use our 'family' name = DH's name, and in my passport is my double-barrelled name which I never, ever use other than when booking plane tickets on-line.
My parents get very, very twitchy about how to address letters/parcels to me - 'tis quite funny; they tie themselves in knots. I think they feel just calling my by the name they gave me, would be disrespectful towards DH or something. Or not acknowledging my 'improved' status as a married woman .

May a throw a curve-ball, please? Can somebody sum up, in words of one syllable what Radical Feminism is? Because I think I may have such leanings... and I gather it's nothing really to do with wanting to kill all baby boys...

Penguins, no, you'r just weird .
And, you've not really thought that through, have you? What with your bump an'all

Doctrine: I didn't take DH's name - cos I have my own already - but my bio father refuses to acknowledge that I kept his name. Love it!

I did exclude my own Pacific. I am really rather hoping that what comes out will be one of my own .

That said, I'm not even a massive fan of my own babies. I mean, don't get me wrong, I adore my kids. But I found the first year with DD1 really, really hard because I simply don't like being on my own with a baby. DD2 was much nicer because she just tagged along with her big sister (and, tantrums aside, I do really rather like spending time with my own two year old). This pregnancy was a surprise and my first thought when we decided to go ahead was thank god the age gap wasn't bigger and DD2 wouldn't be in school!

DD1 is now nearly five and I find her more and more amazing to spend time with every day. Was quite sad when she had to start school! The best bit about a baby is getting a child at the end of it!

Oh, I was only ribbing you, but I am just the same: I love all my boys fiercely, I was lucky to have the size of family I always wanted, but babies? - cute and cuddly, of course, but otherwise boring and stressful and unpredictable and difficult to please at times and so bloody relentless, egocentric wee sods . They trick us with their cuteness in to loving them and caring for them, but gah!! Never, ever again .

I'll even take my puppy statement back - I do want a dog, but NOT a puppy. I'll happily cuddle somebody else's puppy/baby, but not in a broody kind of way.
My mother is totally unable to go past any random stranger's pram without sneaking a peak and starting a conversation and when things go really well, getting a hold of the baby. I lack that gene, methinks.

My dad used to say things like the aforementioned 'Babies need their mother more than their father, which is why looking after them is natural and instinctive for women' (meaning 'easier') and did not understand why that statement made me howl with angry laughter.

Don't worry, I knew you were teasing. I do think it's something people don't talk about though - you can want kids but not actually be that keen on the babies.

I hate it when people ask me if i want to hold their baby. No always seems so rude. But honestly, no, not really. Especially now I am pregnant and know I will shortly be doing a lot of baby holding.

As a slightly maternal childless woman (good phrase, LRD), I like the babies of my friends and relatives, when they're past the freakish newborn stage. But I have no interest in random babies at all.

Kittens, however...

Thank you, I do try.

And I agree, kittens are very cute.

Newborns do smell nice, though. And they do that crinkly-eye thing.

I find it weird that maternal is supposed to be a quality that women have other than to their own children.

I went from being a childless woman to having a child, without a maternal instinct other than as relates to my own actual child

Although I am probably more likely to grab a random toddler running into traffic now, but I think that is just reflex and practice

Well, perhaps it is the wrong term, yes.

What I find odd is not so much the terminology, as that people make such different assumptions about a woman smiling at a baby, and a man doing so.

I didn't really like children or babies until I had my own - probably because I hadn't really had anything to do with them for several years beforehand.

I do love babies though, it's their innocence that gets me, and in the first year or so, that joy that they exhibit on discovering.... well, anything! I've gone from being someone who tuts at children who are "acting up" in public, to someone who has to stop from reaching out when I pass a cute baby in the street .

There is a theory that people leapt from only-women-can-physically-nurture-babies to women-are-nurturing-metaphorically which results in the type of stereotyping we get today.

I have no maternal instinct. I approach bringing-up-children as I approach all things I don't know - I read it up in a book. But I'm quite good at reading things up in books and I do know shite when I read it. I think that's important.

"freakish newborn stage"