The Feminist Pub - come in and chat.

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

This is something like the fourth pub chat thread - please pull up a chair at the bar. Everyone welcome.

Old thread is here: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/1920422-The-Feminist-Pub-continued?

But it's pretty much full so welcome in.

Thanks for all the career comments. I shall have a proper read when my brain is less mushed! I totally agree with 35 not being too late! I think in some ways 35 'too late' in that I don't have the utter freedom in terms of time (available to pour into overtime, study, etc), incurring debt, etc I did at 19. I have more restrictions. But on the other hand I probably 30+ working years left in me. And I only did about 12 after graduation in my first career. 30 years is a long time to do something I've tired of.

Well, the day started with a tantrum and ended with a dirty protest (poo in the bath). So now, before I can have the nice relaxing bath I had planned, I have to bleach all the bath mats, toys, bath. Some days, I really do dread no. 3.

Oh, yuck. Sorry about that.

I think the other way to see it is that you've your partner and your children - to be blunt, 35 is more 'too late' if you've not done those things. Ie., you've got to count into the 35 years the fact you've spent a fair bit of your working life doing things that you can't defer endlessly, so you are in a better position than someone who's not done that.

Yes, that is true. I will have had all the babies I will ever have (I am definitely so done!) and can plan for a fairly smooth trajectory in that I should get more and more available as I go along.

I feel I am sharing too much about the (literal) shit of my last couple of days. Can you tell DH is away with work and I have no one to unload on at home.

Not at all! Why shouldn't you?

That's what people do in pubs. So I think it is right to do it here.

weebarra, I hope you are well on your way to normal health again - that must have been very tough for all of you.

Penguin, over sharing is underrated IMO . I think we should all be much more honest about the shit that goes on in our lives; it'd be more honest and less isolating.

The 'too old' is more of a mindset IMO, not an absolute number IYKWIM. I am objectively too old to ever become an Olympic gymnast at this stage in my life, but that should not stop me to taking up a sport (even gymnastics!) if I so wished.
Or learn BASIC.
Or Swahili.
Or gourmet cooking.
Or whatever.

It's the lack of curiosity that makes us old I think. Perceived limitations by age.

Talking about limitations, has anybody seen this? It was linked to on another FWR thread and it really resonated with me. It also gives me hope that somebody in a position of privilege is able to see his advantages. V perceptive.

Goodness, I totally missed the last bit of your post weebarra. Like Pacific, I hope that things are better for you health-wise now.

Penguins I am a former lawyer, or as my best friend says a "recovering lawyer." I am in the US, though, so that may make some difference in how these things work.

I was able to transition from the practice of law to working for a non-profit that focuses on social justice issues mainly affecting women and children. I design, write, and present training curricula on the subject matter, much of which is law related. Needless to say, it is less money, but I love what I do.

I was 45 when I began the transition.

Hi all! I'm new around here, this shiny new thread doesn't look as scary as the old long one so I've decided to say hi I'm an ex-academic (couldn't hack it any more once I had kids) and now work in technology.

There's lots of bad stuff written lately about women in the tech industry, but honestly I've never found it that bad. Might it be a career change for those of you looking to change direction? A friend of mine is in her 40s and happily making the transition to a technical job :)

Hello! Nice to see you here.

Interesting what you say about tech - I have very small amounts of vicarious knowledge there, but it's mostly the same as what you say. I do think there's an issue that in areas where very few women make it, people are actually more accommodating in some ways. I wonder if that is the case here?

I posted on the thread that pacificdogwood referred to - I think once you're there working alongside male colleagues, they are perfectly happy to accept you. After all, individuals aren't (consciously) sexist. But the problem with male dominated careers is getting in the door, getting the experience and guidance when you don't know what you're doing, and convincing those who don't know you. Maybe it's the same in other male-dominated careers?

I didn't see the thread but in my limited experience I think that is exactly it - as you say, people aren't deliberately sexist.

I think it works both ways though: I spoke to the male nursery teacher at DS4's nursery today and he had to be quite persistent towards his family and friends and course mates that this is what he wanted to do.
He has now been at the nursery for over a year and it's hard to imagine the place without him.
Daft, these gender limitations.

DS1(10) spent 3 months in Germany last year, going to school there and he said just the other day that he felt boys and girls were not 'pitched against each other' like they are in his school here. Interesting and sad.

YY, I agree.

It does work both ways. The depressing thing is that it's considered 'atypical' for women to do careers that earn well and are prestigious; it['s considered atypical for men to do the opposite.

Interesting what you say about Germany.

Well, in my study of one child... .

It's not just getting in the door in a male-dominated career. Once you are in you fail to progress - look at the abysmal figures in STEM academia. Not being deliberately sexist is not good enough. You have to be deliberately non-sexist.

I have always thought I am treated as "one of the boys". Hahahahaha.

uptoapoint academia is something of a special case as there are loads of structural inequalities at work too (I actually left academia because of them). I read recently that many women who leave STEM academia stay in the workforce, which is different from other fields where women tend to leave the workforce entirely.

I suppose I was saying that IME once people know you as a person, and know your work, that tends to override any stereotypes they might hold for you. But that doesn't stop stereotyping against other women, or when you need to move to work with new people.

I like the idea that you have to be deliberately non-sexist :)

I also thought once that once they know me they will know me as a person, but I have been sadly disillusioned, by things other people told me that I didn't know was going on. It's nothing very "serious", more like pre-judging what I can do, what I like to do, what my reaction would be, instead of just fucking asking me. But then perhaps the bastards (who are my friends) do that to everyone. Bastards.

I'm organising a show down some time soon for maximum UNpleasantness effect.

But on the subject of this pre-judging - does anyone else get that? My entire fucking life has been one encounter after another, of people who think they fucking know me better than I do. Do I look stupid? How can't they just shut up? I need a t-shirt that says "SHUT IT" and "EVEN A FISH WON'T GET INTO TROUBLE IF THEY KEEP THEIR FUCKING MOUTH SHUT".

Or is this normal?

I found the micro-inequities thing interesting. It's not just about being in a (numerical) minority, though. In my subject, at undergrad, women are a majority (usually; less so at more prestigious places ). I couldn't swear to it but I'm pretty sure the case is the same at MA/PhD. But by the time you get to the profs, less so.

It's fun for me at the moment - my new project is all 'girly' stuff; my old one was not, and involved, amongst other things, someone hoping it wasn't 'too technical' for me.

Mind you, I reckon what you really don't want to be is blonde and pretty. I get brunette privilege.

LRD I'm neither blond nor pretty. I'm not very tall. And I dress in short skirts and tights quite often. Though I also dress in jeans and rags. I know people who think carefully about what they wear so they are not too "attractive". That gives me the rage. But I'm also obviously foreign. I can never be sure which stereotype would kick in first when I meet people. But whichever it is I would like to kick them. >

Everything gives me the rage these days. It's all the fault of you lot.

Buffy I agree.

I now have to picture you as exactly like actual Buffy. But with science.

Buffy Not about being blond, but about the micro-inequalities.

upto - pre-emptive kicking. I like it.

The height thing really amused me a while back - there's a bloke, you know the annoying kind who patronize everyone (including other guys, senior people, whoever), while desperately sucking up too? He wanted to talk to Ye Senior Man who was talking to me, so he just stood behind me and talked over my head. Literally.

Senior Man looked somewhat disturbed, took my arm and said 'let's go and sit down'. We then had a shared 'what the fuck?' moment.