The Feminist Pub - come in and chat.

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

This is something like the fourth pub chat thread - please pull up a chair at the bar. Everyone welcome.

Old thread is here: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/1920422-The-Feminist-Pub-continued?

But it's pretty much full so welcome in.

There's that apologising again LRD . It wasn't a daft suggestion, it's something I would really enjoy. It's just that journalism generally is a pretty tough gig these days. I'd like to so something with writing I think. I always enjoyed technical writing (not fiction!) as part of my job.

LRD- Well, a lot of the thread was about women who enjoyed having higher earning partners as it gave them options (part time, career breaks,etc). I don't see anything inherently wrong with that, though of course you have to consider your long term prospects. But the really odd threads were the bits where people starting implying that it damaged a relationship if the woman were the main breadwinner.

If you do have children, don't rule out your husband working flexibly too. It can be surprisingly affordable since childcare is so expensive, the money you lose is the bit that you are paying most tax on and there are often ways of flexing your week that don't lose as many hours as you expect.

Argh.

It just comes out. This is why it is a new year resolution. I need help!

Anyway. I wonder if writing could be the thing. It would be natural for you, wouldn't it? And, well, yes, journalism is tough but frankly I imagine law is too?!

The thread sounds, uh ... interesting. Or depressing.

I'm not ruling anything out, btw. It's just strange balancing things. I never thought I would be someone who really cared about a career, but it turns out I do.

Are you looking to stay in academia, LRD?

So do I, just not the one I had . That's why I'll be needing a new one in a year or two!

We shall keeping slapping your wrist for you. That's twice today I've told you off!

I appreciate it, penguin, I really do.

And yes, I can understand that.

doctrine - yep. I love it. But it is scary and I would never stop questioning whether it's realistic/whether I still wanted it. Something I am really aware of is how women don't typically do as well as men, and that makes me want to carry on pushing for it.

*scary because of sexist old farts, I mean. I'm not actually terrified by, erm, books.

Oooh, I don't know. Some of the books in our old law library could cause you a nasty injury getting them down off daft shelving. I was scared of them

Well, I admit, I do have a nasty case of paleographer's back right now. The manuscript I'm working on (which I'm not allowed to lift much less see, but the facsimile is nearly as big) weighs 22kg.

Guffawing. I think men guffaw.

And on that deep note, I'm off for an early night.

LRD I can't think of any job outside academia that I want to do. Repeat after me: We can deal with the sexist old farts. We are not afraid of the sexist old farts.

Night penguins! I must head to bed too, thanks for the prompt.

Thank you, upto.

And yes, we're not afraid.

penguin - yup, men guffaw. And sleep well - hope bump is letting you rest, and that others have more answers for you tomorrow.

Right, here is a proper feminist question. Anyone know how you go about finding a satisfying career as a mid 30s mother of three (relevant because DH works away a lot and I can't just plough the hours in headlong) who wants a change of direction?

Penguins I'll join you in that quest. Have spent the last 14 years since gradutating on the straight and narrow, pursuing a faily typical graduate career trajectory (not in the City) and have been burning out gradually in the last year and a half since going back after dc3. Currently receiving counselling for stress and GP has asked to see me regularly as she wants to keep an eye on me (I am stubborn so I will probably push myself until I drop, although the last few months have been a bit of a wake-up call).

I'm currently exploring the PGCE as an option, I've looked at similar jobs in my field with other companies and just fail to get excited by them. Otherwise I don't know (yet) what I could do as an alternative.

faily = fairly .

We could start a small club. I'm looking to change direction as well, although I'm in my mid 40's. I'm planning on doing an access course and then embarking on a Masters. I think I might need committing, as I have no real plan at the end. I just think that this is my last chance to prove my mettle and actually do something with my brain, rather than it merely being used to keep my ears apart!

The pub could have a career nook!

I feel so sickened by some posters who regularly post with the undertone that "women are their own worst enemy" and that men are benign, bemused bystanders.

Coffee and a confidence boosting pastry, please.

God, could I have an enormous coffee? DD2 is going through a mega tantrum phase and decided to start one at 6.10 this morning. It lasted an hour and I fear it is on the way back.

Sorry, no brain power to respond to anything deeper just this minute.

I hope PenguinChick snaps out of it right now soon.

V interesting discussion here last night - personally I think it's great looking for pastures new. They may not necessarily be greener pastures, but I truly believe that constant learning prevents Middle-Agedness. Not becoming middle-aged which is just a function of time and kind of inevitable, but that horrible sense of 'well, that's it'.
It's one of my bugbears when people say to me 'Oh, I'm too old to go on that IT course' or whatever and they're 35.
I recently met a 96 year old man who I felt quite sorry for because he told me he had been alone over the holiday period because his family live hundreds of miles away and he did not feel up to travelling. He was quite cheerful and said 'No it's alright, I have my iPad and I FaceTimed by son and grandkids, they walked around the house with it and showed me the tree and their presents and the turkey'. Good on him .

My job involves constant learning, informally and formally, which is great most of the time, but disheartening sometimes when I think I'll never be done .

It was pointed out to me recently that I seem to have become more 'involved' which is probably true, as I now no longer have babies (youngest is almost 4). I intensely dislike the expression 'baby brain', but I certainly was very, very distracted what with the demands of v young children. I am not sure why it does not affect (or seem to affect) DH in the same way ?

Anyway, good luck with all your career ventures - sounds exciting!

I don't think it's baby brain per se, it's just a whole set of extra things to care about and think about. If you lived with an elderly woman and had to think about care arrangements, making sure she was fed, trying to keep her mind stimulated, making her environment safe, would you have "carer brain" if that took up some of your emotional energy? No, you'd just have a range of commitments.

I don't know how you and DH balance work and childcare but DH and I do pretty much equal amounts and I know he is more detached from his work than he was, he's directed emotional energy into the kids as well.

Oh, I don't think 'baby brain' is a biological/structural/measurable thing, but I am clearly more emotionally involved in the children's care. I know them better as well, their likes and dislikes, favourite teddy (which changes from time to time, fickle things), their inner-most worries. DH goes on overt and out-in-the-open problems only. 'Tis weird, because he is the more emotionally complex between us two (I am quite a cheery soul and bumble along ), but he doesn't seem to be able to see that the DCs have their own challenges. Weird.

I think part of it is that I feel v strongly that children only have one childhood and it ought to be a good one, so I am happy to prioritise their needs over ours. Whereas he is more keen to have them go along with us, if that makes any sense?

Childcarewise, we have always had to have v good paid childcare due to long and antisocial working hours. When at home, he is very hands-on and bar BFing has done everything else wrt to baby care.
It's more the thinking about things that bug me: Childcare broke down unexpectedly at v short notice and finding a solution was my problem. I do have more social contacts were we live, our boys' friends' mothers to ask to help out (and they've all been lovely). But it was me who had to make the time at work to phone people and arrange pick-ups etc etc. But at least I know that they were all sorted. Whereas DH would've just said to the nanny that she could not take the time off (she has a very good reason to need to be of).

Penguin - This site is scottish but may serve to help crystallise your skills, likes and dislikes www.myworldofworld.com
Re: baby brain/ DH taking an equal share in child rearing, his work has taken a backseat since DCs arrived but it did make more sense for me go part-time for a number of reasons
I was also diagnosed with breast cancer in Oct when DD was 6 weeks so he had no choice but to become even more involved.