The Feminist Pub (continued).

[UptoapointLordCopper]

Been busy. Came back today to have a look but the Pub thread was full! Shall we continue here?

Third episode of Borgen on tonight.

[scallopsrgreat]

Appendectomy! OMG! Hope you are OK kickass.

[kickassangel]

Sorry, just totally crashed the convo. Following Sabrina but I never tweet.

Yes, 50 % of weekend time is for you. Just get up and leave. If it makes you happier, leave thing like food ready, but just say you're going and go.

And if someone talks over you at a meeting just keep going but louder. I hope you dropped the coat on the floor. Don't stand by the door and be welcoming. Sit at the head of the table or walk oblate and loudly start the meeting while you are standing and they are sitting. Don't even offer coffee, and next time someone suggests your ideas congratulate them on being able to read. I'm sure you know all this, but it is perfectly reasonable to do any of these things.

[kickassangel]

Appendectomy not as bad as a c-section, but strangely people seem more impressed by it! Wonder why

[MummyBeerest]

Twitter scares me Sabrina. You're a brave soul!

Hope you're ok kickass!

Scallops, it's really, really frustrating. I lost it on him tonight. I had some dirty dishes out and told him not to use the spoon, it needed to be washed.

He sighs and says "dirty dishes shouldn't be out."

I said to him "Nope. So put it away."

He rolls his eyes and I said "For fuck's sake, everything has to be done for you doesn't it?"

He gets all huffy and says I'm unfair, making a big deal of nothing, etc etc.

When I say I've been busy with a teething baby who's had shots today, he tells me she needs to learn to wait.

SO DOES HE!

GAHGHHHHGHHH!

Sorry. Again, so fucking pissed with him.

[Zhx3]

Mummy, his response is terrible. When this started to happen in my marriage (after dc2), I upped and left him to it for 3 days. Told him I was going out after work and left him to deal with pick-ups, bath, bed and his own food. it was a turning point, I wish I had done it sooner, would have saved a load of resentment. I think it opened his eyes and he's been much fairer since.

Your h needs to realise, as my delightful friend said, "you' ve got 2 arms and 2 legs, use them!"

[kickassangel]

Oh, Beerest, that sounds so terrible. I'm sure that arguing over a spoon seems like such a small thing, but when you're living in the moment, it can feel so horrid. You are not on the earth to take care of him, he should be there to take care of dd alongside you.

[MummyBeerest]

If I'm being totally honest, I often worry that we may split up. We're so different and the day to day seems to take a toll on the both of us.

That's a whole 'nother thread though...

To go back to what Blistory was talking about, somewhat; would you agree or disagree that some men (er, chauvinists rather) rely on women being "too polite" so as to get away with sexism? This is something I've always wondered.

[TheDoctrineOfWho]

I think some people in positions of power rely on other people being too polite/meek/fearful to contradict them.

The people in power are more likely men than women still.

[UptoapointLordCopper]

Mummy ask him: if "being a parent is a full-time job" who does he think will be putting away dirty dishes? Last time I look dirty dishes didn't have a parent.

[UptoapointLordCopper]

And I agree that some people do rely on people being too nice to put up a fight. People are sometimes frankly cowed if you show some strong emotion (like fucking anger). I like the look on their faces when that happens.

[UptoapointLordCopper]

And where is LRD?

[BelleCurve]

Early for drinking but a large latte would be nice!

Isnt LRD doing her viva? checks feminist spreadsheet

[UptoapointLordCopper]

No no no. LRD has done her viva (it's Dr LRD now) and has gone on holiday. A pretty long holiday. Perhaps she's had a taste of RL and decided to ditch us.

[BelleCurve]

Real life sucks! She will be back

[UptoapointLordCopper]

Real life sucks!



I was talking to someone in RL recently and we both agreed on that. We'll continue to live with our heads in the clouds for the time being.

People tried to tell me that I shouldn't be so idealistic because RL sucks. But I think that's all the more reason why you should be. At least then you'd have the moral high ground.

[UptoapointLordCopper]

Back to RL. Need to rejiggle some graphs.

[TheSmallClanger]

People who throw their weight around completely rely on others being too scared/nice/apathetic to challenge them. It is a complete mirage of strength.

It is a variation of the dynamic we talk about so much on here, where women end up doing the bigger share of the shitwork, because the aggro that comes from refusing to do it, or even trying to negotiate, is too much.

It is often easier to challenge in a work situation. A bit of perseverance is sometimes enough to convince others to stand up to the dominant ones. In the home, it's harder.

[UptoapointLordCopper]

Agree it's much harder at home.

[BelleCurve]

Money is power. If you are SAHM, is it difficult to challenge when your and kids livelihood is under threat. The partner has ultimate sanction of just walking away and everyone knows this.

[BelleCurve]

At least at work it is less likely to be the whim of one man.

[BelleCurve]

More likely a committee of them

[Blistory]

It's more difficult at home because men tend to put less value on work done within the home.

So you end up with Mummy's argument about the spoon and then you're forced to explain that it's not the spoon itself, it's the principles behind it all. Whereas the poor man's out all day working hard at a real job whilst the wee woman's complaining about dishes.

Even men who don't think themselves sexist, often show their sexism at home and it's difficult to challenge because it's so ingrained, because they don't put a value on domestic work and because the default position remains that it's women's work.

And as for work, today's meeting was pretty much the same in as much as who did the majority of talking, who took credit where none was due. Any attempt to directly challenge it would simply result in them disregarding me as being strident etc etc. Much easier to smile politely and point them in the direction of the coffee machine and direct the conversation how I wanted it to go. It meant repeated attempts at redirecting things but we got there in the end. Sometimes quiet persistence achieves more but I'm pleased that I'm aware of how the dynamic works against women and remain determined not to bend to men's way of doing business even if it would be easier.

How fecking difficult is it for men to show female colleagues and their wives courtesy and respect ?

[TheSmallClanger]

I am of the opinion that most of the work done within the home does not need to be done half as frequently as we are told it does.

It's a bit of a feminist no-no these days, but I have to say that I don't place a huge value on housework, and do as little of it as I can.

Well done on your meeting at work. It sounds as if your observation and strategy is starting to pay off.

[MummyBeerest]

I wonder this too-surely if men are to be "all business" and not take things personally- -like us wimmin-- then they'd be able to appreciate the work of a colleague regardless of male/female?

[MummyBeerest]

Shit, delete fail