The Feminist Pub (continued).

[UptoapointLordCopper]

Been busy. Came back today to have a look but the Pub thread was full! Shall we continue here?

Third episode of Borgen on tonight.

[kickassangel]

hi again LRD.

(I know we've moved on, but I did wonder just how the man was going to sort out the seahorses so that they didn't have the babies, or maybe he meant that every other species on earth needed to be sorted out so that the men did have babies? In fact, what is the definition of 'male'?)

We just had a great weekend of museums, pretty much 3 days solid of sciencey stuff - science & tech museum, aquarium, natural history museum - all for the benefit of dd, who is NOT a girly girl, but IS very definitely a girl.

btw - girls don't tend to fall behind boys for strength/height until puberty. They often fall behind earlier than that due to society. I don't think it's right to hit/kick anyone except in self defence, but if you're going to do it, then it should be like boxing - defined by similar weight categories, not genitalia.

[youretoastmildred]

Thanks everyone.
I just don't want to seem evasive. When I was younger I used to hate answers like "we'll see" and "never you mind" and "it is what you make of it" (I guess the last one is the one that was a real killer as while it is true of a lot of things for adults with a reasonable amount of agency, children who don't have much that they can influence or change being blamed for things that they hate as if the hating them is the problem is really unfair) I would like to give a straight answer although of course calling a spade a spade is actually misleading when it is a shovel.

kickass, gsounds like a great weekend.
btw I can remember beating boys in fights at primary school (I didn't pick fights, but I was ginger, come on, what can you do?) (It helped. I was well liked when I left primary school and I didn't have a good start)

[PacificDogwood]

Oh, I was fairly... ahem... physical in primary school - I was amongst the tallest/strongest in the class and certainly a match for any boy (or girl) with regards to speed and strength. I did not fight that much, it was all about playing tig and play wrestling with the boy I liked .

That all came to a stop when we changed schools...

I always did well on sport's day etc, but was always, always hopeless at throwing a ball. Don't know what that is all about?!

"Never you mind" is a horribly dismissive thing to say to anybody, worse so to a child and I agree "It is what you make of it" requires a bit of life experience/maturity to see that it has truth.
I did not mean evading the question as such, but I feel a yes or no answer is not really appropriate (unless you actually believe in magic ), so ment to imply there are things we cannot necessarily explain or cannot explain so a 4 year old understands meditation and how mind and body work together (let's face it, lots of people don't understand that), yet they still work.

DS1(10) has a great fear of spiders (I am trying not to label it a phobia at this point yet), he is a very clever cookie and we have really good conversations about how his head knows that our house spiders are totally harmless and that there are lots of spider we share our house and garden with and that they eat insects we want rid of etc etc. His mind however gives quite a powerful response to any spider (even cartoon ones...) which in turn makes his body react (shaking, hyperventilating etc). I am trying to keep it as low key as possible (except for when I come done like a ton of bricks on DS2 who has discovered he can reduce his older brother to a quivering wreck by going on about spiders . Charming child!) and be a reassuring as possible the odd time that he loses it.
He is a lot older than your DD, mildred, so it's easier to have more abstract conversations with him.
How did last night go?

[youretoastmildred]

Fine - she hasn't had a nightmare for a while and is pretty relaxed now but the "spells" have become part of her routine and she likes them.
She goes to a C of E school but my memories of religion at school (RC) are that they don't really teach the experience of worship or prayer or the value of such practices to you as a person. I remember a lot of guilt about the requirement to pray and apart from prayer, a lot of social stuff about being unselfish, but nothing about any of it being good for you.
I have come back to the church (or "a" church! as my parents would think) late because despite being very well taught and very dutiful it took me a long time to realise that the church offers some solutions to a lot of my personal problems in terms of a practice of spirituality. I don't want my dds to miss out on this!

Sunday school is all about the "about". None of it is about being in the presence of god or what have you. I don't know how you expect the children to find out about this, when adults worship and children are taken out to draw pictures of Lazarus or something. An RE lesson is a different thing from an act of worship.

Sorry about all the rambling but I am trying to say I suppose that I am confused too but don't want to gloss over the whole thing in a way that leaves them without something important

[PacificDogwood]

Oh, I know what you mean. I don't have faith and I cannot imagine ever 'finding' it again (although I grew up in a church going family) and the main thing I miss is the meditative aspect of going to church and being part of a community.
I don't want to be preached at and I find I cannot just follow the liturgy because the meaning of the words bother me, but I find the actual process of a service v soothing.
I've never bothered to find out about meditation or made an effort to do it - maybe I should

[PenguinsDontEatPancakes]

It depends on your child I think.

DD1 is very serious and likes serious explanations. To her I would say "No, they are not real magic. But your brain is a very strong and your mind can help protect you from bad dreams even while you are sleeping. So we do these spells as a little reminder to your brain to look after you when you sleep. It's your own body looking after you, but we're just reminding it".

[rosabud]

I think it depends on you, your child, the relationship you have and your family experiences - and that goes for everything from "magic" to belief in Father Christmas or the tooth fairy. For the sort of thing you are describing (meditation/bedtime ritual), I would have told my children at the age of 4 that it absolutely was magic and that I certainly could do spells! As they got older, and their own understanding of the world evolved (including, of course, their understanding of me!), I might have said it with more of a teasing tone (or outraged tone if they professed not to believe me!) and I would also have done a bit what LRD suggests with the old "well, it's working, make up your own mind!" Once they get much older you can actually analyse it with them and the way such things were appraoched by or worked for your family.

I think your comments about Sunday School, that is an RE lesson are interesting. That is quite an old fashioned way of doing things these days, perhaps you need to find a Sunday chool that offers a more spiritual approach.

[UptoapointLordCopper]

I'm inclined towards Penguins' explanation.

[UptoapointLordCopper]

xpost!

With father christmas and tooth fairies etc I've always answered the question with "What do you think?"

[PenguinsDontEatPancakes]

That's what I say too LordCopper. I don't want to be a killjoy, but at the same time I refuse to out and out lie to them about imaginary people!

[PacificDogwood]

Oh, I like that explanation, Penguins, v good.

Wrt to Santa etc my big boys absolutely insist that he must be real, so who am I to disagree I know they are just greedy beggars hoping for lots of presents, but still

[youretoastmildred]

I like Penguin's answer.

We do have some blurred lines, but only for fun when the stakes seem lower... I invented a totally random reward fairy the other day, who was waiting downstairs with a clip board to see how cooperative they could be on x, y, z as they were "up for an award!!!". dd1 automatically threw herself into complying and then at some point realised that she had never heard of this particular fairy, from anyone else ever, including me.
"Is she real?" she asked.
"Do you want her to leave you the award?" I said. "How can she do that if she's not real?"

hmmmmmmmm.....

[rosabud]

I know what you are saying.........but I can't help it, I love Father Christmas so much that I have out and out lied on his behalf over the years. In fact, once when my son came downstairs on Christmas Eve and caught me in the act of putting a large toy together, I fabricated a whole novel of lies about Grandad telling Father Christmas to ....... oh I can't remember it all now but it was priceless. Ny eldest, now 16, and I still talk in code about what we think Father Christmas might be likely to afford this year. Actually, I think I have been so convincing over the years that I do actually believe in Father Christmas myself..........after all, who else could it be who polishes off that large scotch we leave by the back door??

[youretoastmildred]

rosabud, interesting, I didn't know it was considered to be old fashioned. I will look into this - do you know a lot about it?

[PenguinsDontEatPancakes]

I don't go out of my way to break the spell or anything. When DD1 commented that the father Christmas at the school fayre wasn't real I said something like "Well wouldn't father christmas be a bit busy this time of year?". It's just I won't out and out say "Yes, he is real".

[rosabud]

Err....yes I do as it happens! PM me if you want some more information!

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

I have to say, I can't stand traditional sunday school stuff, so good to know that there's more out there these days. I'm interested.

I do find for me there's a bit of a conflict in that I think 'woo' stuff is nonsense, but I do have faith and there's absolutely no logical way to justify one and not the other, which I'm sure children can and do grasp.

[UptoapointLordCopper]

I don't go and tell them that everything is a lie. But we talk a lot about mythology (courtesy of the Percy Jackson books) and why people believe in these things. The 9yo is happy to discuss this. I'm not sure quite what the 7yo thinks about all this!

[youretoastmildred]

I think there is a weird disconnect in that as parents we know children are little important people with needs, many of the same needs as our own but perhaps more intensely and more acutely felt because they are not empowered to meet them independently (by buying food or cooking it, or going out and proactively forging nourishing relationships if the people already around them are not inspiring or positive about them, etc). And yet religion, which according to one way of looking at it is all about meeting human needs for certain things*, is delivered to children in a way that completely strips it of that nourishment!

• I am not saying that is all it is

[PacificDogwood]

I have such great memories of Christmas and Easter etc and loved all the Santa/Easter Bunny stuff, that I just cannot not do it for my children, if that makes any sense.

I must have been about 8 or 9 when the conversation came up in the car whether they were real and I was told that they were not. I remember a feeling of loss but was not overly upset by it. It was more "Aw, that's a shame. Ah well " kind of thing.

I don't lie to my children except for this. I know there are lots of people deeply disapproving of this approach and I understand (and don't even disagree) where they are coming from, but I just can't help myself.

I agree about 'woo' and 'religious' beliefs - and it was what ultimately made me the atheist I am now: how can one belief be faith and the other one superstition??
This is clearly something that never troubled my gran who was one of the most pious, observing women you could imagine, and also the most superstitious one. I used to tease her by walking under ladders .

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

You big meanie to your gran.

Sorry, not trying to change the subject, but I am going to moan a bit. I have horrible butterflies, the car's in the shop for its MOT and they were meant to give me a call with an estimate for work that needed doing by 'late afternoon'. I suppose it is late afternoon and they're still open for an hour, but I wish they'd hurry up!

I really hate car-related stuff, it's the one thing where I honestly do wish DH could drive and do it because I'm fairly sure he would get patronized less than me.

[PacificDogwood]

Oh, I hope you hear soon, LRD.

One of the compensations of being married to a petrol head (there are many down-sides, believe me) is that my car just magically gets serviced and washed and oil topped up and tires changed. 'Tis small compensation, mind...

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

I'm sure there are downsides but for now, no - pure envy.

[PacificDogwood]

Sorry.
Now I feel bad for mentioning it

Hope you hear soon.
AND you can officially sit on the Feminist High Horse for being empowered wrt the automobile situation in your relationship.

[PacificDogwood]

Whereas I am a Surrendered Wife