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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The Feminist Pub (continued).

999 replies

UptoapointLordCopper · 23/11/2013 20:02

Been busy. Came back today to have a look but the Pub thread was full! Shock Shall we continue here?

Third episode of Borgen on tonight. Smile

OP posts:
PenguinsDontEatStollen · 16/12/2013 16:03

Oh yes Tee, I agree. I suppose I meant that, in my enthusiasm for addressing things I wish I could do it all now, now, YESTERDAY. Which isn't really fair on my girls. But on the other hand we seem to have stalled in many areas and change is always going to require some pushing against what you are trying to change. Smile

GodRestTEEMerryGenTEEmen · 16/12/2013 16:11

PD that is an interesting point.

The Stonewall riots were 44 years ago and traditionally mark the beginning of the gay rights movement. And that movement has come very far, I think, in those 44 years. Certainly further than feminism seems to have come.

And I wonder if that is because there is less infighting and debate as to what gay rights means as opposed to women's rights. I've been involved in both movements and, I gotta say, gay rights marches are a hell of a lot more fun than feminist ones. And not just because of all the drag queens. Grin

PenguinsDontEatStollen · 16/12/2013 16:24

Though I am sure that the drag queens help Grin

youretoastmildred · 16/12/2013 16:53

I don't want to debate with you Tee, you aren't reading what I am saying and you are being snippy about things you don't understand. It's no fun. It is frustrating and boring.

Also - just popped back to see that we have now ticked off the following bingo squares:

  • feminists are always infighting, their own worst enemies
  • also they are boring and no fun.
  • not like brilliant fun gay people! who are mainly hilarious drag queens! LOL

Really not a place I want to be hanging out just now.

Thanks to everyone who was so kind to me last night, I do appreciate it, but I am definitely off now because I have allowed myself to get lulled into a false sense of security and find some sorts of thing much more hurtful and offensive in this corner of mn. I'm fragile, it is not a good place for me right now. I find it upsetting when people don't listen to me - it's my thing. I know I can't really expect it, and I know a lot of you do get it, but right now I am finding this more trouble than it is worth. so, bye.

PacificDingbat · 16/12/2013 16:59

I am not sure about the dressing thing... There are neutral colours/cuts of clothes, they are just quite difficult to find unless you know what/where you are looking for them. And resent having to go out of my way to look IYKWIM.

I live in jeans and t-shirty type tops when off duty and in trousers and tops that don't require ironing when working. I have enough of a bust to never, ever be mistaken for a man Grin.
I suppose that does not work for little girls/boys Wink.

I have mistaken long-haired little boys for girls and more rough-and-tumble little girls with short hair for boys (yes, I know, I know, my gender preconceptions are alive and well) and I don't really understand why anybody would be offended if that mistake happened? There are (traditionally) only 2 genders, a child has to be one or the other and if it was very important to a parent that their child was never mistaken then I suppose you'd need to either tie a pink ribbon in their hair or put a navy blue truck on their chest Hmm.

It is interesting, Tee, that you have experience less infighting in gay rights circles than feminist ones. Hm. Depressing.

IMO I am a feminist because that is what I am. And I think you'd struggle to feel at home on this thread if you were not.
mildred, as I've said to you before I enjoy your well-thought through and considerate posts. You articulate things far better than I every could and probably think them through more than I do .
Hope you're doing ok Thanks.

Love and peace, folks, love and peace (I've seen a Christmas jumper, bright red, huge gaudy coloured letters that spelled "Love and fucking peace". All in good taste, I'm sure...)

UptoapointLordCopper · 16/12/2013 17:04

Mildred Hope you are ok. Your posts are honest and always make me think. I like that.

"Feminists are always infighting". Well, is it so surprising? Or are we "ladies" supposed to be so nice and fluffy and have only one opinion between us? Honestly. Let us fight and get it out in the clear.

OP posts:
GodRestTEEMerryGenTEEmen · 16/12/2013 17:04

Well, mildred I am who I am and I 'speak' the way I speak. Your dismissiveness of my opinion is just as insulting to me as you seem to find my 'not reading' you.

I'm sorry you're having a shit time. But you don't get to take that shit time out on me. I have done nothing to warrant it except disagree with you. And you implication that I don't know what I'm talking about? Is also insulting. So maybe if you opened your eyes and read what I have to say, you would get the chip off your shoulder and we could all get some changes.

And this exact kind of conversation and situation is why so many people on MN hate FWR.

Mildred, you're welcome to it. I won't be back. Feel free to call this a flounce. I call it bowing out where I will never fit in.

PenguinsDontEatStollen · 16/12/2013 17:07

Look after yourself Mildred. I am sorry that you feel that way. I have enjoyed your posts and I think we agree on a lot. Merry Christmas. x

monicalewinski · 16/12/2013 17:08

We are not further on because we in-fight IMO.

I find a lot of the feminism stuff fascinating, and am very passionate about getting girls young - to ensure that they grow up with a built-in belief that they can try and fail, they can compete - life is not limited if they don't want it to be. A lot of the problem with girls is their view of themselves and self-worth - especially in teens; if they think that they have to be x,y,z to impress a boy then that's what a teen will do.

I find a lot of the hand-wringing a turn off. As an adult woman with a strong sense of self I am pissed off when someone tries to ascribe a set sense of characteristics to me. For eg, I am quite happy for my husband to go out whenever there is a do on, he doesn't go to the pub regularly but when he does go out he is invariably shitfaced - this is fine in our relationship because he doesn't take the piss, if he did I would let him know (the same courtesy is reciprocated my way). Our relationship is equal and that is fine.

I like the blurred lines song - the words are shitty, the video is a big pile of crap, but the song is super catchy and I like the way it sounds. This does not make me a non-feminist - I am more bothered by the sexualisation of all the female singers, and the way it is dripfed to girls that this is how you will 'get a man'.

The gay rights thing is very simple - do not treat me badly because of who I find attractive or who I have sex with, it is a clear message and everyone can jump on board the message - no matter if they are super camp/super butch/wear their sexuality on their sleeve or not, it is clear and defined.

There are so many different levels of feminism - for eg, through the years I have put up with some horrendous sexism, if I hadn't I wouldn't be where I am now - where I am now is in a position where I can be a positive role model for the young girls who work under me. The biggest compliment I ever got was one of the young girls saying "I want to be like you when I'm older - you don't take any crap off the guys and they like you". The guys I work with like me because I am working alongside them and doing what they are doing, well, without constantly pointing out that I am a woman. So am I a feminist because I am encouraging free thinking and self-worth and belief in a younger generation, or have I let the side down because I have not fought every battle that befell me??

It seems sometimes that you have to fully commit to all the ideals or you are not allowed to 'be in the gang'. The reason we are so effectively kept in our place is because we still fall for the divide and conquer tactics that are used against us.

Things have changed hugely over the years, slowly, but a lot. My grandma was not allowed a mortgage when she left her abusive husband with 2 children in the 50s, because she didn't have a man to sign it; I could get a mortgage whenever I want. My mum was sacked from her job because she was pregnant with me - this was legal in the forces until 1993/4 only 20 years ago, I am still in the forces with 2 children. There are only 5 female technicians at FS rank in the RAF - 5. There are hundreds of men at this rank, there are NO female Warrant Officers as yet - these things are slowly changing - we just need to keep on encouraging the change, and stop overthinking the small stuff. Stop picking on each other, but keep challenging people to think.

I've seen very good posts on threads where 'one of the feminists' is patiently making points or challenging assumptions - it must be quite tiresome to think you are beating your head off a wall, but I can guarantee that quite a few women will read it and have a mindset change, however small - I definitely have.

All in all, a huge long ramble which probably makes no real sense, but I just wanted to get it down - strength is in numbers and there are so many different ways to 'be a feminist', it's not prescriptive.

PacificDingbat · 16/12/2013 17:10

monica I agree with what you are saying - except for blurred lines: crap song all round Xmas Grin

I suppose we've had our first pub fight... Sad

I hope everybody is ok.

monicalewinski · 16/12/2013 17:15

Aaargh, massive crosspost with Mildred, sorry - I'd been trying to type the other post for ages and kept getting distracted.

Mildred, I know what you're saying re the bingo squares - but honestly, there's things I say and perceptions I have that are not anywhere near as well informed as people who have been through different experiences or levels of learning.

I am reading and digesting a lot of stuff that you and others are posting and some of it makes sense, some doesn't, some I am quite resistant to - but I am still finding it hugely interesting and have thought more consciously about what being a woman/perceptions of women are etc over the last couple of weeks than I have in years tbh.

monicalewinski · 16/12/2013 17:19

Blurred Lines rocks Dingbat! (Although I will concede that Robin Thicke is a creepy wanker!!).

Merry Xmas everyone Xmas Grin

PenguinsDontEatStollen · 16/12/2013 17:20

The pub thing was more that the OP was pissed off because he was sooooo much later than usual or anticipated (with no communication) she worried all night then he expected to sleep it off the next day without any thought that that meant she had to do all the childcare on no sleep. I do see what you mean about different relationships being different Monica but it was the shouting down for not being ok with it when there were valid reasons to feel that way that got me. Fully agree that people get to set their own boundaries.

Afraid we will never agree on Blurred Lines but hopefully we can still be friendsSmile . I just cannot separate the admittedly catchy tune from the horrid rapey lyrics.

PenguinsDontEatStollen · 16/12/2013 17:20

The pub thing was more that the OP was pissed off because he was sooooo much later than usual or anticipated (with no communication) she worried all night then he expected to sleep it off the next day without any thought that that meant she had to do all the childcare on no sleep. I do see what you mean about different relationships being different Monica but it was the shouting down for not being ok with it when there were valid reasons to feel that way that got me. Fully agree that people get to set their own boundaries.

Afraid we will never agree on Blurred Lines but hopefully we can still be friendsSmile . I just cannot separate the admittedly catchy tune from the horrid rapey lyrics.

PenguinsDontEatStollen · 16/12/2013 17:20

The pub thing was more that the OP was pissed off because he was sooooo much later than usual or anticipated (with no communication) she worried all night then he expected to sleep it off the next day without any thought that that meant she had to do all the childcare on no sleep. I do see what you mean about different relationships being different Monica but it was the shouting down for not being ok with it when there were valid reasons to feel that way that got me. Fully agree that people get to set their own boundaries.

Afraid we will never agree on Blurred Lines but hopefully we can still be friendsSmile . I just cannot separate the admittedly catchy tune from the horrid rapey lyrics.

PenguinsDontEatStollen · 16/12/2013 17:20

The pub thing was more that the OP was pissed off because he was sooooo much later than usual or anticipated (with no communication) she worried all night then he expected to sleep it off the next day without any thought that that meant she had to do all the childcare on no sleep. I do see what you mean about different relationships being different Monica but it was the shouting down for not being ok with it when there were valid reasons to feel that way that got me. Fully agree that people get to set their own boundaries.

Afraid we will never agree on Blurred Lines but hopefully we can still be friendsSmile . I just cannot separate the admittedly catchy tune from the horrid rapey lyrics.

PenguinsDontEatStollen · 16/12/2013 17:21

Argh. why did it just do that. Sorry everyone!

PacificDingbat · 16/12/2013 17:25

Well, clearly I am a far superior feminist than monica because I don't like Blurred Lines WinkGrin.

That pub thread was dreadful.
And I am saying that as somebody who does not in the least mind when DH goes out as I know that if I want to go out I can without being questioned about where/who with/how long just as I don't question him. But then agains we'd share that information anyway, so it's a non-issue.
Also we both have PINs on our mobiles phones, always have done, mainly to stop toddlers making phonecalls etc (although said toddler now also knows both our PINs...) and I have no idea who texts/phones him during the day nor does he know who I communicate with (or what I say about him on here). If he chose to behave less than honourably, I know there is nothing I can do to stop him. I trust that he doesn't. If I find out that stuff has been going on or if his behaviour towards me is not what I can accept, then I will deal with it. I don't see how being paranoid or even just mildly worried about his every stop would help.

PacificDingbat · 16/12/2013 17:26

Penguins, good point, well make, several times Grin.

How's you bump btw? Sorry, random question, just popped in my head Blush

PenguinsDontEatStollen · 16/12/2013 17:35

Bump fine thanks. Finally felt less awful about two weeks ago. Am nearly 22 weeks so about blooming time. Grin Not long before it all goes down hill at the other end.

Anyone have any good feminist names for boys or girls Wink

PenguinsDontEatStollen · 16/12/2013 17:36
Smile
PacificDingbat · 16/12/2013 17:38
Grin

Boudiccea

Nelson - v topical

monicalewinski · 16/12/2013 18:08

Fucking hell penguins, you made your point the first time!!

I will try to be friends with you, but you must promise to free-style twerk with me if we ever happen across that song! Wink

PenguinsDontEatStollen · 16/12/2013 18:43

Hmmmm. I think we might have to not be friends. Sad I am not twerking for anyone. For a start I have a five month bump and no core musclesGrin

monicalewinski · 16/12/2013 18:54
Xmas Grin
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