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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The Feminist Pub - come on in, chat, ask a quick question, ramble ... whatever you like!

999 replies

LRDtheFeministDragon · 30/10/2013 12:05

Hello and welcome! Pull up a chair!

This thread started when we all decided to imagine what the perfect local for feminists would be like. So far, it has taps with plenty of good real ale, and some decent non-alcoholic alternatives too. There are comfy chairs and there's a feminist film night, as well as lots of nice feminist-friendly books on the shelves and space to curl up and read. The open-mic nights are attracting feminist singers and comedians, and we're just sorting out the feminist creche.

Old thread is here: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/1875250-The-Feminist-Pub-is-Open-Chat-Rant-or-pull-up-a-chair-here. But don't feel you need to read or catch up - just jump in.

I'm having a nice cup of earl grey but there is wine mulling as requested.

What can I get anyone?

OP posts:
PenguinsDontEatPancakes · 07/11/2013 22:19

Oooh, I am jealous of those who can knit. I tried to learn a couple of years ago and got as far as a really shit scarf (child sized). I am crap at taking up new skills. I get all discouraged and give up.

Perhaps I need a nice, easy home based skill for my new year's resolution.

PacificDogwood · 07/11/2013 22:23

Ooooh Penguins, but you have a chance of knitting teenie-tiny baby things - they are great because they are frigging finished so quickly Grin.

I was hospitalised when pregnant with DS2 from 25 weeks onwards and knitted literally dozens hundreds of baby booties and hats while on bed rest. This was 9 years ago and the local NICU still have some of my hats Grin[quality merchandise]
The bootees take about half an hour - I could teach you... knitting is a vair feminist skill to have, you know Wink

PacificDogwood · 07/11/2013 22:25

Aw, the goady/trolly/misguided thread I was being all sensible on has just been removed by MNHQ - 'twas horrible and amusing. Darn, I'll have to find something else to be silly on

PenguinsDontEatPancakes · 07/11/2013 22:25

I've been reading that thread about women and hobbies...

Right, night all.

BerstieSpotts · 07/11/2013 22:25

Basically, I was upset because I was afraid that he had realised that he couldn't actually cope with living with me. I am pretty crappy to live with, messy, not very good at cleaning up said mess, occasionally let personal hygiene slip as well (:(), tend to retreat into myself quite often and want long periods of mumsnet time alone time. The latter isn't a problem at all because we're very well matched on that point and mostly do our own thing in the evenings, although we occasionally have to poke each other and say "Oi - shouldn't we do something together?"

The first I worry about, and we have talked about before. I can let it get bad. I'm nowhere near the level I was at when I lived alone (it was bad to the point that health visitors were doing unscheduled home visits, I had a family support worker and on one of my monthly "support" meetings with them they brought in a support social worker, who said there wasn't really much he could offer in the way of support but did give me a checklist of basic cleaning/home hygiene standards which was actually the most helpful thing that happened in all that time!) - OK, so, it's not that bad any more. But I am generally crap at sticking to things I've promised/agreed/planned to do.

I was worried because I told him ages ago, that if he was planning to propose I didn't want him to do it until after we had been living together, for the second time (ie, now/here) for a decent amount of time and he knew he was really up for it. I didn't want the resentment to build up and then it all come out one day. So, he ignored this and proposed just before Christmas (bearing in mind we moved this summer!) It took me a long time to give him an answer because I was really worried about this. We had lived together before he came over, but only for 9 months, he was working nights so we were on different time zones, I was in the absolute worst blackest period of depression I have ever been and it was shit. It did us a world of good for him to actually move out, but I was worried that maybe the living together was the problem. Not helped by him being really shocked/upset by the state of my house one time when he came home for a visit. But anyway - all of this was why he ended up living over here alone for so long. He proposed, and it turned out he hadn't ignored it at all but had taken it into very careful consideration and this was one of the things we talked about before I said yes, and one of the reasons that I did say yes even though I had felt that it would be unwise.

Since we did get engaged, I have felt so happy and settled and secure. It is such a different feeling to me, from being with someone where you don't know if you want to be with them for life or not. I felt like he had accepted me, faults and all, and he had really thought about it and he really wanted to do it. And all of this was true. But then coming here and we've ended up talking about the cleaning thing again and he is frustrated because I haven't done things I have said I will do and I started to get scared that he had "downgraded" the relationship and that maybe he was questioning whether he could actually live with me after all, and it was just my worst fear - that he'd given me this security and happiness and now he was going to take it all away because I wasn't good enough. And this time it wasn't just me, it was DS, and having given up everything back in the UK and the life here that I am really enjoying and starting to feel like I am living and coming out of the black hole I have been in.

But, yes. We talked and he said no, in no way is he questioning whether he can live with me, he was frustrated about a particular thing and not me in general and that even if me being crap (my words) is the best I can be that he wants that anyway, he is happy with that and he already made the decision ages ago that he is happy with that and that was when I was even worse Blush

So I have concluded I am both quite incompetent at having/being in relationships, and also that I am very lucky to have such a lovely person in my life. Sorry to ramble at you all, but I have no friends here yet who I could spill such a story to, and in fact haven't even been to a pub spilling such stories for such a long time, that in fact it has been quite cathartic, and if you're all too drunk bored to read it, it doesn't matter. :) (And in true pub fashion, I should now really go to bed, but I won't for another hour at least I expect!) Grin

PacificDogwood · 07/11/2013 22:25

Sleep well Smile

AnnieLobeseder · 07/11/2013 22:27

Just sticking my head in to rant, feel free to ignore me....

Why, why, why, whenever women's issues are discussed, does someone have to make the comment "Well, you see, this is why nobody likes feminists. If you were nicer maybe people would listen.".

Aaaaaaaaargh!!!

Maybe if things were nicer for women we wouldn't have to be all angry and ranty!!!

As you were.

PacificDogwood · 07/11/2013 22:30

Aw, Berstie, gie yoursel' a break, really do Smile. He is by the sounds of it; put that stick down you are beating yourself up with.

Baby steps.
What needs cleaning most? Do that and be proud of it.
You (and him) sound lovely - don't push him away by being defensive; he knows you, he's seen you at your worst and he has chosen to be with you. Give him some credit for his good judgement and taste Flowers

My dream is to find the time and energy to declutter, really declutter. That would make keeping tidy and clean soooo much easier....

PacificDogwood · 07/11/2013 22:31

Annie, 'tis being 'nice' that got us in to this mess, so just tell them to STFU Grin

AnnieLobeseder · 07/11/2013 22:34

Can't do that, Pacific, we must be nice at all times. And make sammidges. Hmm

Though I'm glad I came in here to rant, cos Bertie's story has cheered me up. Not the bits about her feeling bad about herself and unworthy of love (been there!) but her partner sounds like an awesome human being.

BerstieSpotts · 07/11/2013 22:36

Well, nothing needs cleaning most because he's done it Grin although I did the washing up I'd been promising to do for about 3 days... it's more day to day stuff, and admin stuff like making phone calls and paying bills. Phone calls are on the agenda for tomorrow after I go swimming :) I've been doing some exercise to help boost my mood and hopefully my energy levels but I haven't been in over a week now.

PacificDogwood · 07/11/2013 22:37

Annie, you could bat your eyelashes, giggle and apologise breathlessly, Marilyn Monroe stylee for having been rude?

Or you could tell them to please STFU?

He does sound nice, doesn't he? Smile

BerstieSpotts · 07/11/2013 22:40

Annie, am I right in thinking you used to post on the NPD threads about 4 years ago? If so you will understand totally how I am so utterly mind boggled that he exists let alone why he would want to persevere with me.

And he isn't perfect, he leaves his nail clippings in a little case for me to open unexpectedly and has an aversion to wearing anything more expensive than Primark, and he leaves washing up sponges in the manky dregs of the water so they go all smelly, but hey, can't have it all Grin

BerstieSpotts · 07/11/2013 22:42

And don't forget, he posts 9gag jokes on facebook. Bastard.

PacificDogwood · 07/11/2013 22:43

Ah, good plan, Berstie.

My SiL who I don't see v often, but get on well with when I do, has problem with staying on top of things. I am messy, but she is in a different league, for instance I may get behind on the laundry (I need 1-2 loads on everyday to not drown), but I have never left washed laundry in the machine until it was mouldy. She has various issued and life can be really hard for her. It is also not always easy for my brother who works full-time, is her main support and does a lot of the childcare-sorting-out as well. He loves her and adores the ground she walks on - they've known each other for 30 years Shock, together on and off, now married for 7 years.

It sounds like you have strategies in place - use them.
Adminny type phone calls are horrible and lots of people avoid them if they at all can. Procrastination is my middle name... Blush

AnnieLobeseder · 07/11/2013 22:44

NPD? Dunno what that is, so, no, it was probably one of the other 8(!) Annies on here. But you, my lovely, need to be kinder to yourself.

My DH, on the other hand, has given up listening when I rant about feminist issues and has started rolling his eyes at me. Grump. I had a go at him about apparently not caring about the shit his wife and daughters have to put up with. I mean, I know he doesn't really get feminism, but I can't fault him for that, because neither did I until a year or so ago. And he does try to understand. But I wish he'd try harder!!! Grin

PacificDogwood · 07/11/2013 22:44

Yeuch, smelly sponges AND poor jokes - LTB not really

TheDoctrineOfWho · 07/11/2013 22:47

Annie, have you put that one on the bingo thread?

SabrinaMulhollandJjones · 07/11/2013 22:53

Glad you're ok bestie. Wine

I get increasingly annoyed about men expecting to take centre stage the whole time. On here - as a male = now listen to me - I know what I'm talking about, laydeeez.

But also in real life - just little things, but I'm noticing it now all the frigging time. Yesterday I was at the gym and I had the pool to myself - twas lovely and not that unusual as it's a small place, more spa than gym. I'm doing a peaceful breast stroke on one side of the pool - bloke gets in, snaps on his goggles and proceeds to plough up and down the middle of the pool like a fucking killer whale, creating a boat-like waves onto little old me. Hmm

If that had been me, I'd have automatically gone to the other side of the pool, to leave the other swimmer their 'space' - but it obviously didn't occur to him.

Petty huh? But if I can't rant about the little things here...

BerstieSpotts · 07/11/2013 22:57

What's a feminist pub without a LTB Grin

Sorry for the identification fail Annie!

I can totally see myself forgetting laundry until it was mouldy, although I've only ever done that with stuff that was put in a bag to wash later and then left somewhere. DS had some gorgeous bright yellow JCB dungarees as a toddler and wore them once before I left them in a bag to go mouldy, along with a pair of shoes! :( I sometimes wonder if the part of my brain that deals with organisation and remembering things is actually missing or faulty.

My worst thing is to have this nagging feeling I need to do something, then decide that I don't need to do it because I can solve the problem in a different way, or decide something else is better, and then forget I decided this and do the original thing. I have a horrible realisation halfway through and then I get annoyed with myself! I'm also totally and utterly unaware of time so I'll buy some food and then when I think about cooking it be really surprised and annoyed to find it's gone off because it's been a week. And I'm always late but get really annoyed at myself about it and can't figure out why I'm late. I'm much better at this after I read a really enlightening thread about it a while ago which made me realise that normal people plan in time for things like getting ready and don't assume they can squeeze it in at the last minute.

BerstieSpotts · 07/11/2013 23:00

But I do find it really sad when people say things like "Being late is selfish because it means that person values their own time more than they value yours" and "Well, if it was important to you, you'd make sure you didn't forget it!" because stuff often is important to me but it doesn't make it immune from my stupid leaky brain! I could really do with a diary or something but I forget to look at it Blush Definitely going to try that one again now I've started teaching though so I can look at it to plan my lessons and then hopefully I'll be able to put other things in it too.

BerstieSpotts · 07/11/2013 23:01

Sabrina, I get really annoyed by things like that too!

kickassangel · 08/11/2013 05:15

.

TheRealAmandaClarke · 08/11/2013 05:44

(((Berstie)))

TheRealAmandaClarke · 08/11/2013 06:16

And yes, Sabrina I hear you. The pool/ gym is THE arena for this overbearing behaviour. My least favourite example is the need for some loads of men when they're using the communal steam room to stand, hands on hips, by the door. It occupies so much more space than they actually need and dominates the whole room, blocking the door way. It's so oppressive. (trivial, sorry)

Berstie I'm sorry things are awkward ATM. Brew and ((hug))

Penguins thinking of you.

pacific thanks for your thoughts on ageing. It really helps to hear these things.
joyful I can order some online though, so don't worry, thank you for the heads up. I am not a huge marshmallow fan but I love the idea of bejewelling a winter hot chocolate with mint marshmallow.

At 6th form (so, about 100 years ago Wink I remember our school drama group doing a sketch in which they challenged the stereotypes of gender roles. (we were only kids) they had a female consultant surgeon and a "male nurse".
Nurse approaches patient's bedside
Patient: "Good morning Doctor"
Nurse: "oh, I'm not the Doctor I'm just the nurse"...
It was an example for me of how, in order to elevate the view of one, then others must be belittled. Very common ime. Subtle, but insidious and pervasive. Especially for roles that are female dominated.

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