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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The Feminist Pub - come on in, chat, ask a quick question, ramble ... whatever you like!

999 replies

LRDtheFeministDragon · 30/10/2013 12:05

Hello and welcome! Pull up a chair!

This thread started when we all decided to imagine what the perfect local for feminists would be like. So far, it has taps with plenty of good real ale, and some decent non-alcoholic alternatives too. There are comfy chairs and there's a feminist film night, as well as lots of nice feminist-friendly books on the shelves and space to curl up and read. The open-mic nights are attracting feminist singers and comedians, and we're just sorting out the feminist creche.

Old thread is here: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/1875250-The-Feminist-Pub-is-Open-Chat-Rant-or-pull-up-a-chair-here. But don't feel you need to read or catch up - just jump in.

I'm having a nice cup of earl grey but there is wine mulling as requested.

What can I get anyone?

OP posts:
SabrinaMulFUCKERJjones · 05/11/2013 23:51

Thanks, I'll have a listen Smile

TheRealAmandaClarke · 06/11/2013 06:16

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kickassangel · 06/11/2013 06:21

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TheRealAmandaClarke · 06/11/2013 06:30

me too *Grin

  • I love you all for sharing that. Why don't "tech" like it?

Also, thanks for the film tip. I shall give "Hope and Glory" a go but I won't be able to sit through anything too Moving Blush I really do cry like a girl Grin

"The wheels on the bus" when the " mums on the bus go natter natter natter" and the "dads on the bus go shh, shh, shh" Angry
This is so far removed from the reality of my household that it almost kills me to sing along.
Maybe I should rebel.

PenguinsDontEatPancakes · 06/11/2013 07:45

After a thread on here, I sometimes sing "the mummies on the bus study astrophysics" under my breath...

TheDoctrineOfWho · 06/11/2013 07:53

We have daddies on the bus going nod, nod, nod and mummies on the bus saying "I love you."

Which isn't much better really!

youretoastmildred · 06/11/2013 10:49

Sorry for being so grumpy yesterday. Really struggling with tiredness and generalised "not this again" fatigue.
I'll have a double espresso please!

Read Andrew O'Hagan in the LRB on Norman Mailer. Does anyone have at their fingertips a neat precis of the Mailer v. feminism events? I could look it up. If no one knows, but anyone cares, I will come back and tell you.

Have a good day all

SabrinaMulFUCKERJjones · 06/11/2013 10:52

Ha ha Penguins - I'm going to start singing 'the mummies on the bus study astrophysics' too - but we'll no doubt get someone saying 'but daddies study astrophysics too...'

kim147 · 06/11/2013 10:53

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

PenguinsDontEatPancakes · 06/11/2013 10:55

It can be our secret calls sign if we meet another FWR parent at toddler groups. Grin That and all the RSC merchandise from the previous thread!

PenguinsDontEatPancakes · 06/11/2013 10:56

On a more socially acceptable note, if I ever lead, the mummies say 'sit back down' and the daddies say 'don't do that'. Which is pretty representative for most parents controlling toddlers on a bus I think!

Grennie · 06/11/2013 11:01

If I ever run a workshop at a feminist conference with the title - The Mummies on the Bus do Astrophysics, you will know it is me. Grin

MooncupGoddess · 06/11/2013 11:09

" Does anyone have at their fingertips a neat precis of the Mailer v. feminism events? "

No, do tell! Kate Millett's demolition of him in Sexual Politics is masterly (and hilarious).

youretoastmildred · 06/11/2013 11:26

Mooncup that sounds great. I have never had my hands on a copy of said book but this may be the final push that will get me there.

"Mailer married his second wife, Adele Morales, in 1954. They had two daughters, Danielle and Elizabeth. On one occasion Mailer drunkenly stabbed her twice with a penknife, puncturing her pericardium and necessitating emergency surgery.[24] His wife would not press charges, and he later pleaded guilty to a reduced charge of assault, and was given a suspended sentence.[25][26] While in the short term, Morales made a physical recovery, in 1997 she published a memoir of their marriage entitled The Last Party, which recounted her husband stabbing her at a party and the aftermath. This incident has been a focal point for feminist critics of Mailer, who point to themes of sexual violence in his work.[27]" (wiki, obv)

From a Guardian article:

"For many, though, the writerly feuds - and even the writing - were a distraction from the matter for which Mailer has incurred more opprobrium than any other in his career as a literary celebrity: his battles with feminism. "In the 1970s," Gornick recalls, "women in their 20s and 30s knew what he meant, at whose permanent expense 'feeling alive' was to be had. And when we said so, out loud and in print, Mailer turned vicious. The anti-feminism was pathological, a thing we turned away from in fear as well as rage."

It was never entirely clear from Mailer's goading public pronouncements - most famously, that "all women should be locked in cages" - just how much he was in earnest, and whether they mattered less if he wasn't. Today, he pleads misquotation, misunderstanding, and the bandwagon-jumping of publicity-seeking feminists.

"I was on a television show once with Orson Welles, and at a certain point he got very pious about women - Orson Welles, who was married to Rita Hayworth, of all people! And so I made a totally stupid remark. I said, 'Oh, come on, Orson, women are low sloppy beasts'. Now I was going to add, with a great twinkle, and they are also goddesses . But you make a remark like that and you don't get any further. Well, the feminists took over. They used that remark and ran with it. They enjoyed that remark... of course, part of your character is dictated by the nature of your foe, and a lot of those early feminists were just godawful people."

Altogether unexpectedly, he turns out to be a new convert to the works of John Gray: "People have been known to say that men and women come from different planets, and were landed here, and that to me is as reasonable a hypothesis as an other.""

Mailer on Machismo:

"In the 30 books that followed The Naked and the Dead, machismo was never far from the centre of Mailer's preoccupations. That must lend a special poignancy to growing older and more frail? He laughs, a gritty chuckle. "I'm laughing because I'll be 79 in a coupla days - machismo is that faint zephyr I can still barely hear on the other side of the hill. But listen: machismo is not the easiest cloak to wear, the easiest role to assume in life. Machismo is a ladder, and there's always a guy who's more macho than you coming up that ladder. I've never had any illusion that I was high up that slope, and it's a desperate slope, because if you get to the top, you're dead. Macho means taking the dares that come your way, and if you take every dare that comes your way, sooner or later you're gonna be dead. So I'm quite happy to have machismo behind me now. There are pleasures in being macho, but there are great anxieties. It was a great load to carry. I was never macho enough to enjoy being macho. I don't know. I'd fight if it came to it, but people don't go looking for fights with men my age.""

youretoastmildred · 06/11/2013 11:34

I note "Orson Welles, who was married to Rita Hayworth, of all people! " - meaning, presumably, that a man who chose to be married to a beautiful woman must surely relate to them primarily as objects, just as he did? Or something?

I am kind of disgusted by the uncriticalness being shown by O'Hagan to a character like this, in this day and age. O'Hagan sometimes has something interesting to say, or least a sort of verve and moral sensibility in saying it, so to be able so clearly to identify yet another literary bro for whom women are simply fodder, don't count, is sad. annoying. I met O'Hagan and he was full of himself of course, but seemed, in a way, decent enough.

I guess it's just a bit of fun for these guys.

Or maybe not. Maybe it's of prime personal importance to possess and master the other body on which to clearly inscribe your masculinity. Maybe it is a matter of life and death; maybe you die as a certain kind of man unless you have the freedom and the will to almost kill your woman (and the next one too)

youretoastmildred · 06/11/2013 11:37

Thinking about this makes me feel so sick at heart and makes me feel an unwilling sympathy for the sort of old-fashioned chivalry that we would all love to be outdated. I have been thinking in rather defeatist terms that maybe we could all do worse than it being a Code that you allow women to sit down, always offer them things as if they cannot help themselves, and don't swear in front of them. Because actually I am exhausted and childbearing has wrecked my pelvis and I would like to sit down a lot; and maybe men should always offer us things because backlash against us trying to help ourselves is always so exhaustingly, unbearably violent; and I have no stomach for swearing or any sort of roughness at all

TunipTheUnconquerable · 06/11/2013 11:37

LOL at it being 'unexpected' that Mailer likes John Gray!
Mailer sounds like a terrific arsehole. Agree that Kate Millet's Sexual Politics is worth a read - brilliant book.

TheRealAmandaClarke · 06/11/2013 11:38

Marking place to ad this later witha glass of something nice. Thanks Mildred
were you grumpy yesterday?
MN-ing is not compatible with feeding 9mo dd.

TheRealAmandaClarke · 06/11/2013 11:40

H, I'll be singing the atrophy discs version of wheels on the bus at toddlers this week. Grin

youretoastmildred · 06/11/2013 11:40

yep Tunip I lolled at that too.
I am on abe books right now to score a copy of Sexual Politics. There is one in Lancashire.

TheRealAmanda, I am very pleased if you did not notice I was grumpy!

TheRealAmandaClarke · 06/11/2013 11:44

Shameful spelling/ autocorrect. Well, clearly this mummy is not studying astrophysics.
But, in the style of "life of Brian" I may not be able to study astrophysics, not being clever enough, but I can have the right to study astrophysics.

MooncupGoddess · 06/11/2013 11:47

Oh God, I thought at first you meant John Gray the eccentric philosopher, who always has something interesting to say, whether you agree with him or not.

But you mean Mars and Venus guy, don't you.

Andrew O'Hagan seems to have become increasingly self-satisfied in recent years, which for most men means increasingly happy with the patriarchal status quo.

grimbletart · 06/11/2013 11:52

Sorry you are having such a miserable time youretoast.

I think people often confuse chivalry with courtesy. Chivalry is the patronising concept that we (men) are stronger and all round superior to you (women) so we can afford from our lofty heights to do all sorts of faux protective actions that make us look good and emphasise your feebleness.

Courtesy, by contrast, are the good manners that men, women and children can all display to each other e.g. in giving up a seat because a pregnant woman looks exhausted or an elderly man or lady is having trouble standing on a crowded train etc. etc.

Chivalry bad, courtesy good.

youretoastmildred · 06/11/2013 12:00

yes I get all that, grimbletart.

Chivalry does make the patronising assumption that men are superior but also makes the (in some contexts) quite realistic assumption that they are better resourced.

  • it would have been the case in 20th century dating that a man would pay, as they had proper jobs and women had pin money, if that. well now women are still paid less
  • if you have small children the physical toll on the body is likely to be upon women's (except for the fact that some fathers will be tired if they get up to small children in the night.) so the logic of men standing up for women makes sense in a society in which families were large and women were liekly to be permanently peri-natal or old. I have a lot of pelvic pain although my youngest is two and a half
  • In social situations women are frowned upon who push themselves forward: express preferences or ask for food or drink or whatever. thus any reasonable man would make disproportionate efforts to find out what the women in the room actually want, where and whether they really want to sit etc rather than taking it at face value that if they want something they will ask for it, because the penalties are actually quite high if you do

I am not actually arguing for a return of chivalry. I am just tired and thinking that equality is taking its damn time

TunipTheUnconquerable · 06/11/2013 12:03

Well, patriarchy isn't just about rule of men, it's rule of older men, and as men get more firmly ensconced into smug successful middle age they get more comfortable in their seats at the top of the pyramid.

On which subject, has anyone else noticed increasing pomposity in large numbers of male friends as they get into their 40s?
I am increasingly noticing the men doing all the talking when we have dinner with friends. I honestly think it's just that many of them are now getting to the point where they're treated with a lot of respect at work and are starting to over-value their own opinions on everything as a result.