The Feminist Pub is Open - Chat, Rant, or pull up a chair here!

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

This thread started when we all decided to imagine what the perfect local for feminists would be like. So far, it has taps with plenty of good real ale, and some decent non-alcoholic alternatives too. There are comfy chairs and there's a feminist film night, as well as lots of nice feminist-friendly books on the shelves and space to curl up and read. The open-mic nights are attracting feminist singers and comedians, and we're just sorting out the feminist creche.

Please come along, draw up a stool, and have a good chat about whatever you fancy - as serious or as trivial as you like.

For starters, I have a half-pint of lemonade. What can I get anyone?

I am on holiday and not normally on wifi (crawling along now!) but thought I'd drop in and say hi.

Baby brain makes me so angry. It gets trotted out as a way to undermine pregnant women and new mothers, and more often than not women collude in it themselves by trotting it out as the reason for things. I firmly believe that 'baby brain' is a combination of all the massive demands on a new mother and the sleep deprivation. Even a mother with a wonderful sleeper will not be getting the weekend lie-ins, holiday breaks, etc she is probably used to. And let's not start on children like DD2.

I remember I had someone make a 'baby brain' joke with DD2 and I said "Ha ha, no, not baby brain. I just haven't slept for more than two hours at a stretch for 4 months." The response was real shock that I'd been so direct.

Pacific - I hear you on young babies. I often say that I'm glad you only have to go through having the first one once. After that, you have a family life going on teh baby can slot into. Not an adult life you've had to leave behind (in the sense that you aren't going to spend all Sunday morning in bed reading the paper and drinking coffee) and nothing yet to replace it.

So much of this is down to our own personal experiences, isn't it?
I have used the phrase 'baby brain' but mainly as a kind of short hand for the "no sleep, incessant demands, emotionally exhausted and touched-out" state I was in.

I also never had any kind of maternal rush - I wanted children, I tried for children, I was delighted to be expecting and I was lucky to have had 4 (albeit v different) deliveries. I grew to love my children; DH was the one who 'fell in love' in the delivery room.

I feel v strongly that motherhood gets mis-sold: gives you purpose in life, fulfills a woman, the happiest even in a woman's life is to have a baby . I disagree - I think we are conditioned to believe (some of) this.
It's a bloody hard slog, it is physically/emotionally/psychologically demanding and not always rewarding/fun/exciting.
I find only people who've been alone with young children for longer stretches of time understand the mixture of bored and stressed I often experienced.
I think it is demeaning on people who cannot or don't want to have children to suggest they are somehow less 'fulfilled' .

I wanted children, I am v lucky to have the size of family I wanted.
I am so enjoying the more verbal = 'interesting' child . Trying for/being pregnant/having children has been the most exciting thing I've done, but also the most exasperating and if it had never happened (and it came close to not happening - don't worry, I won't recite my entire obstetric history ) I know I would have led a worthwhile and interesting life also.

I get impatient with people who say 'Oh, they grow up so quickly' with a despairing wail because all I can think is 'Thank heavens above for that'.

I am rambling.
In a most unacademic manner.
Cold Riesling in my glass.
Cheers.

I agree that motherhood is mis-sold, partly by a conflation with homemaking. People who like making curtains and doing clever things with the windfalls and so on might think they can be a SAHP and have a ticket to constant chic craftiness. At least at first, they will be living in a howling windsock of untidied socks from Tesco and large pieces of plastic, and absolutely incapable of doing anything about it

Yes. I do agree that it can be shorthand. Problem is that far too many non-mothers don't understand that you mean it as shorthand.

Yes to thank heavens they grow up.

If motherhood wasn't mis-sold to us, might the species die out? on the other hand I think it is the most rewarding thing I have done but maybe because I have done everything arse about face. Kids first then think about education. Had I been doing a job I really enjoyed or travelling the world quaffing champers I might have found it quite stifling. AS it was it was a well needed step back from the fray to reflect on other aspects of my life. But I would never have said any of that when I was knee deep in plastic tatt, nappies and constant feeding. Its unrelenting and usually isolating.

But I think the modern view on parenting and esp motherhood is very schizophrenic. On the one hand its a great opportunity to buy into the lifestyle of cup cakes and bunting, on the other its portrayed as being dull and if you enjoy it a little too much, then you must be slight of brain. Either way capitalism shapes our conception. On the one hand we are encouraged to become consumers on the other hand, our value is in working. So much of our identity seems to be tied to waged work even though we provide most of the free labour. Its shit.

Oh yes, it's all rather... convoluted and illogical when you stop to think about it.

And yes, I think the species would die out

900+ posts... We're gonna need a new pub soon...

I shall open one tomorrow morning, pit.

you're - in my last post that you asked about, I did indeed mean 'be understood'. I rarely have anything I would feel sure people needed to understand, but I did feel awful thinking I was saying something and upsettting people or making no sense, when I just wanted to be understood.

I am not suggesting we limit terminology. I am suggesting we shouldn't assume people who struggle with terminology persistently are trolls.

I used to work ft in a demanding job with plenty of unpaid overtime.
Now (when not on mat leave) I do that job pt with very few hrs over. I think hope I still do it well.
I had so much more time for "cupcakes and bunting" drinking/ partying/shopping/ laundry/cleaning with my no kids, ft work life.
I shouldn't be, but I am shocked at how I haven't any "me" (sorry) time.
Being a SAHP would be great if the DCs were at boarding school and I wasn't expected to do any cleaning or laundry.

But surely motherhood need not be as it is at the moment?

Maybe not Grennie it would be very different if I employed someone to "keep house" and some additional childcare so I could have leisure time.
I suppose that is the situation for some women/ families.

I agree that motherhood is missold to us, but actually I think it's only sold like that to women at the "right" stage in life. When I became accidentally pg at 19 I was told I had ruined my life and would never manage - thanks grandma. At 30 when I had a partner and a decent career it was a wonderful thing to be having another baby, a miracle, according to the same people. Actually it was the same experience of being tied down with a tiny infant dependent on me for everything. I found them both difficult, in fact dd2 was probably harder because I didn't have as much practical support from my parents and dp was at work a lot, as well as the fact that she screamed a LOT.

What are your plans to improve the motherhood experience grennie?

I have just noticed this great pub. I will be trying pop in later (as it is to early at the moment 7.30). Fancy a Mulled Wine by a roaring fire, while the cold wind is blowing outside.

Vegan food -omg vegan cake I am going to be in heaven!

Hope you open at lunch time.

Good morning.

I work part-time and resent it when people think that I'm either at work or looking after the kids and don't seem to think I have anything else on the plate. As if the only reason I can have for not wanting to work 24 hours a day is because I can't because I've got the burden of kids. (Actually maybe that says more about me then them. .)

But then it's a bugbear of mine: they make assumptions about you, you tell them it's not like that, they say oh but there is no need to be so defensive. You could strangle them but then you'd be leaving a string of corpses behind you as you go through life.

No, it need not, Grennie.
It's so easy when there are other people around, especially adults who know my children well. The questions and demands get spread out, and even if the adult-child ratio stays the same, the kids entertain & learn from each other. My favourite friend tidies round automatically when she comes, sorting socks and reboxing board games.
My husband, surprise surprise, is really not keen on the idea, but I would love to live communally, even though eating vegan/endless meetings/lack of privacy would do my head in, the benefits could easily outweigh the disadvantages.

That's so true Didi.

Something I just noticed this morning, and if anybody is wondering why I'm not posting on the thread it's because I don't wish to derail it or upset anybody - but there is a post this morning by a new poster very similar to your recent thread LRD asking about the worst/hardest parts of parenting. And IIRC on LRD's thread everyone sort of let rip and spilled their guts about the absolute, hardest, worst, gut-wrenching things. (And I was one of them, for which I apologise, because actually I only realised a couple of days ago that I've just been depressed for the last two years) - but on the newbie's thread, people are posting things which they find hard but then they are countering it with good stuff. Or they are saying the usual hard things like sleep deprivation, the fear of them getting hurt etc, and not really going into the depths of the life changing thing.

I definitely think it is pushed on women as something which will "fulfil" you. I've never had the experience of being a woman who doesn't have or want children but my friend posted on her blog the other day that she is worried she might be "broken" because at the moment she doesn't want a relationship and at 25 she still doesn't want children. I said I think it makes her very sensible in as much as that a lot of people sort of blindly go into it because of course it's a good thing, it's what you want, everyone wants it. And don't stop to think about what they actually want for their life and how everything would fit in.

I still wish I had two children. I want more (so that I can have that - I sound ridiculous to myself!) but I am really dreading going through the "first baby" thing again which I think I will because of the large age gap.

Lol Copper

Waving at budda and popping the wine on to mull for later.

berstie - oh god, yes, that thread! I meant it to be a lighthearted 'let's have a wee moan' and it just opened the floodgates. I'm so sorry to hear you're depressed (hopefully now you know it is getting a bit better?).

It did make me realize how much it is quite taboo to discuss this stuff, which should have been obvious to me.

Yes - it is the strangest thing, something just flipped or switched in me 2 or 3 days ago and I feel like I'm living again rather than just existing. It is quite wonderful :) I had not realised just how closed-off I had been, either.

I think your thread was unique because you are known and respected as a longstanding poster who can talk with intelligence about these things, would not be easily "scared off" the site and would prefer the truth to platitudes. This is not to suggest, at all, of course that the new poster who started a similar thread is not intelligent but she is of course an unknown quantity and I think it has influenced posters quite a lot. I can't think of anything else it could be, because they were worded very similarly. They are on different boards I suppose.

I am glad to hear that Berstie Depression really is the most awful thing

This blogpost is going viral, it's about young man's experience of depression. It was very insightful and well worth a read

Though maybe that's the last topic you want in your head right now.

Rotten day here. Might have a hot choc with Baileys beside the fire

LRD, you are quite right, to ask for explanation is not necessarily to be obstructive. You are coming at this from a much more generous angle than me and I am sure you are right. I am bitter and twisted for various boring and stupid r.l. reasons and I need to look at some of this beautiful sunshine and woman the hell up.

Berstie, so sorry you are depressed. and from me.

I don't know if any of you know who I am - I am familiar with a lot of you but nc a few times - so I hope I don't seem like a crazy stalker.

No, motherhood need not be like this. I am so lucky to have DP. He got up in the night to our crying 2 year old but I am so twisted that I felt really guilty about this (that it was not me) and am worrying that he might be annoyed with me. (he says he is not.) If anyone is counting, it is definitely his turn, but only probably if you are counting over their whole lives. I have been taking a bit of a break. but I do feel pretty broken, broken not by recent weeks or months but their whole lives. I wish I could just trust that he is ok with doing that and it is surely a happy thing that I have someone else who loves and takes care of the dcs, not a gloomy thing that I am racked with guilt and paranoically agonising about whether he is resentful or not.

Have a good day all feMNists

Oh, that's wonderful.

I'm so glad you're feeling better.

I take your point about regulars. I reckon it's also because people generally know I don't have kids, so there is no worry I'm secretly struggling with PND and therefore need people to be gentle.

(And thanks for the kind comments, though I must say I was well out of my depth on that thread! Not in a bad way, simply in a 'need to listen and learn' way.)

And I think you got an honest account of the bad times/the dark side, rather than a balanced account which may also have been honest. It was one-sided to the EXTREME. Which was initially what was asked for. But the new poster has asked for one-sided and received balanced replies.

Actually I utterly utterly love this blogger who manages to sum it up on one blog post. She has been to hell and back with her experience of motherhood, quite literally. And yet she is grateful and generally happy with her life now. But she is so right - motherhood does not fulfil our entire souls and give our lives meaning like they tell us it will. It's just one of many things you can do to feel like this! You blissed-out moms are ruining futures

In fact it strikes me that it's quite similar to the relationship lie we are sold - that a relationship will fulfil our every desire and we cannot be happy without one and if we can't find somebody to love us, then we are worthless. When in actual fact we need to be able to find the happiness and self worth within ourselves, and then we can have healthy relationships. It doesn't do to hang all of your happiness on another person. I think it's similar with children - children can be one of many things that make you happy but they aren't the whole source of happiness in the world?

youre - you're not bitter or twisted! Don't feel that. I am just coming at it from my own perspective really.

I don't know 'who' you are (you can PM if you like, or not, just explaining. I'm never any good at spotting name changes). But are you ok? You sound very down on yourself.

Thank you everyone it's a bit of a pattern for me, if I'm honest. I'm glad the storm has passed for now, and I hope it doesn't return this time. I'm in Germany now and they are very big on holistic health so perhaps that will help me in the future too. :)

Mildred I have seen you around and assumed you were a ncer! I totally agree that having a properly supportive partner makes all the difference. I mean properly, not "will do their share but will be resentful if ever feeling that they do more" or "expects showers of praise and virgins offering BJs in return for normal fathering skills".

Having DP around enables me to have a life and an identity outside of being "Mummy". And that is so crucial and vital and the defining factor between men and women in the "traditional" setup which leaves women feeling so isolated.