The Feminist Pub is Open - Chat, Rant, or pull up a chair here!

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

This thread started when we all decided to imagine what the perfect local for feminists would be like. So far, it has taps with plenty of good real ale, and some decent non-alcoholic alternatives too. There are comfy chairs and there's a feminist film night, as well as lots of nice feminist-friendly books on the shelves and space to curl up and read. The open-mic nights are attracting feminist singers and comedians, and we're just sorting out the feminist creche.

Please come along, draw up a stool, and have a good chat about whatever you fancy - as serious or as trivial as you like.

For starters, I have a half-pint of lemonade. What can I get anyone?

'Baby brain' IMO and IME does exist.
It's not permanent but then gets replaced by 'Too Many Balls In The Air Brain' IME .

I know what you mean about things being dismissed because the phrases used to describe them seem to high brow. The opposite is true though as well: people who do not use complicated language get not taken seriously in certain circles because they don't use the lingo.
'Tis a bit like a 'secret handshake': we (literally) speak the same language so we understand each other. Or we don't, in which case you must be Wrong .

It all depends on the audience, doesn't it? Communication is not just about saying what one needs to say, but also making sure that the counterpart understands. And wants to understand rather than undermine or derail.

I always know far better in my head what I mean than what I am able to say or write down. I am sure this is a skill that could be practiced but 'Too Many Balls In The Air" puts pressure on time AND brain space.

Yes pacific that is what I meant.

Primary maternal preoccupation. That's a real thing.

Just pondering baby brain.

If it's called baby brain, it implies it's something that happens to women when they have kids, automatically, unavoidably. It means women with babies are unreliable because of their hopeless brains.

If you forget the label and just refer to it as the effects of sleep deprivation it actually forces us to face up to what society is doing to mothers in the lack of support it gives them and the expectations we have - they must breastfeed but not co-sleep because it's not safe, they must go back to work at 6 months because they can't afford not to even when their job is damn hard to sustain without sleep, etc.

I think we should do away with the term.

Just had lunch with the mother of a 10-month old. She is brilliant and doing really well but it is obviously relentless, it was interesting seeing a childless woman with us clock onto this. I don't want to go back there.

7 months ago she had photos all over Facebook of her with the 3 month old baby, looking all fabulous, at a ski resort. Much as I love her, I dimly remember that I felt a bit shit when I saw them as I would not have considered doing something like that at that stage. Today it came up in conversation and she said it was too soon, she didn't get any skiing in because it doesn't work with breastfeeding, she was exhausted all the time, and devastated that the other family's 2 year old destroyed the baby's nascent sleep regime which had just been starting to get her some rest. I am ashamed to say that hearing this was something of a relief! I went on holiday with both my dcs at 3 months to places where I was pretty sure they wouldn't sleep any worse and it was all I cared about.

It's killer.

I've said this before on MN and still have no practical experience to back it up - but not all cultures have the concept of 'baby brain', and those that don't seem not to recognize it. I mean, I've talked to pregnant mums who said 'nope, never had that experience', rather than 'oh, I felt like that but didn't have the word'. Only anecdotal, but interesting, I think.

Re. academic terminology and uneven playing fields - I totally agree.

I actually think the 'you can go google it' argument can be quite unhelpful. If you don't know that you're ignorant, you won't know to look something up, will you? Loads of people, for example, start getting into a debate thinking they know what 'patriarchy' means - it means there's a group of men who deliberately control everything - and so we end up talking cross purposes with them. In that situation, it's slightly difficult to simply snap 'oh do go and look up what the word means!', though tempting when it's an MRA who clearly already knows and is on the wind-up.

I think two different things are being conflated here:

apparently unnecessary jargon (which can be looked up)

misunderstanding of words that feel familiar but have a particular meaning (which could be explained)

the silly thing is that the latter is made more likely by fear of the former. If people want to understand (in either case) they nearly always can. If they want to make out it is incomprehensible rubbish they will jump on either bandwagon, or even both (however inconsistently)

Well, precisely.

My point is that you don't know which one you're encountering. And people do get upset when it seems as if jargon is all around them.

I don't really think it's true people only react badly if they choose to. I do think people genuinely get upset from misunderstanding or being told to go away and look it up.

Mildred - Yes never believe facebook updates. They give a very warped picture of people's lives. You would think everyone was having a fabulous life if you believed it all.

It all boils down to whether somebody wants to understand or be understood or whether they subtly or not so subtly make sure they misunderstand or twist everything or show off/mislead. I am referring to derailers here, not genuine lack of understanding. People who insist they don't understand to stop the thread from 'flowing' etc.

Re baby brain: not for a minute do I believe that this is biological or hormonal or X-chromosone bound (remember this is me who is siting on the fence re male/female brain differences ).
Give a man with little/no support a high needs baby to look after 24/7 and he will soon put the milk in the dishwasher and the car keys in his dressing gown (only to find them again 6 months later) and his mobile down the back of the sofa. None of the above happened to me, oh no, siree... [bush].

FB - I just don't get it. Never have done. I recently deregistered after not having used it for several years

Competitive parenting is so pernicious. Some people take to parenthood like ducks to water, others struggle. Some have placid babies, others don't. Some have lots of support, others have little or none. And don't get me started on compeitive birth stories...
When I am Queen of the World I will decree that all new mothers will have 6 weeks babymoon with being waited on hand and foot, baby with them at all times, but somebody there to support and help and hold and take for the odd walk when mum needs a rest .

I like facebook purely for feminist discussions. It is a good way of making contact with feminists around the world. I have got to know feminists in places like India and hear their perspective. Without facebook, I would never have had this opportunity.

I will drop this in a moment, so ignore this post if you like.

But I really don't agree.

I ramble a lot and I don't always notice what's a derail and what isn't, and when I started posting here, I thought the best approach would be to ask lots of questions when I didn't understand, because I had always been taught that it was both polite (as a sign of interest), and flattering to the person you're talking to (as a sign of deference). That's actually a huge example of female conditioning. That is a strategy society teaches women. And a lot of men practically require it.

I think it's important to recognize other people might be in that boat. I have seen it on here, and it's not hard to tell - people who are genuine keep coming back; people who aren't soon show their true colours. But at the beginning, I do think it's hard to tell.

Grennie, oh, I get that kind of use of FB; I also think it's a great way of staying in touch with family all over the world. I suppose it's a tool like anything else and can be abused. I don't get the games and the 5 minutely updates ("Oh, PFB has done their first poo") and the showing off... Like I said, I just don't get it and when there was a concern a few months ago about PMs not being entirely secure I thought 'What the heck?' and cut my losses. Tbh, I've not noticed the difference to my life...

LRD, I am probably thick, but I think we are both saying the same thing?

Oh, I'm sorry, maybe we are.

All I was really thinking was, I spent a long time when I very definitely wanted to be understood, but I clearly wasn't. So I don't think pure wanting gets you there.

LRD very.good point about female coditioning. And I do that a lot in RL.

No, but Not-Wanting make sure any communication will fail.

Although well-meaning you and me did not do too well there either, did we ?

Btw, DS4 just bit me so hard that he reduced me to tears - it was shere overexcitedness, not aggression, but ouch!! Just a tiny bit of skin at the back of my arm pinched hard by his little puppy teeth - still nipping now. I would love to blame the patriarchy for this one, but fear I cannot.

makes sure.

I really must get in the habit of previewing again.... sorry.

Oh.

You may all rise

We are a perfect (and on your part, regal) demonstration of how to act.

And ouch! Sorry to hear about you getting bitten! I've got wonderful bruises all up my legs and waist that my smear test nurse thought must be signs of abuse - I had to explain DN just enjoys climbing up me!

Ouch. Both of you.
DD is biting. It's a teething thing. I am looking forward to her passing that phase. Yes I am.
Please may I have a large glass of warm Norfolk punch (or similar non alcoholic spicy fruity drink) barkeep?

Oh, BFing and biting - that's a whole other hell, sympathies, Ghost.

I was going to say something else about the "newborns need their mothers" thing: of course they do, particularly when BFing and in many, many areas of the world it's either BF or die, pretty much. And of course, by the physical closeness (it does not get much closer than being inside somebody for 9 months, does it) of pregnancy and early infanthood a bond is created. I don't think there is anything magical or woman-specific about it. Again, BFing aside, I think any man left in the situation where he'd be the only caregiver to a very tiny baby would become The Most Improtant Person to that baby.
It is another way in which IMO the patriarchy is damaging to men who very rarely have the opportunity to develop that kind of bond with their young children.

On top of the fact that many would not chose to develop that level of closeness to a v young infant who, let's face it, may not 'give much back'.

Oh, I did not alway enjoy looking after babies, can you tell?!

And I am the least regal person you could begin to imagine

Hm, we weren't saying the same thing though!

(LRD, did you mean "understand" or "be understood" as you wrote, in your last post on this?)

happy to leave it if you prefer, but although I think you are right in the sense of describing a perfectly acceptable model of coming to an understanding, I have a curmudgeonly sense (paranoid? Me?) that limiting the terminology can limit the discourse and can be used sneakily to disallow certain concepts. Or delay them. Hold them up. Introduce charmingly expressed red tape, smile winningly while battening down the hatches.

Imagine talking to a "sweet" old buffer who refused to use "SAHP" and said "I just can't get used to it. We called them housewives in my day". If you accept his rejection of "SAHP" there are certain ideas you just can't have. He might - however unconsciously - be doing it deliberately.

And "Agh! Scary language!" often means "Agh! scary ideas!"

If you think about how we get language, I just don't accept that the only way to manage is to sit people down and say "here is a Book. Here is a Ta-Ble.". This is not how we learn any language, least of all our first, which will become the most fluent and the most natural. You get mothers saying "are you hungry? Do you want some milk now?" to minutes-old babies. When this happens you don't get other people saying "don't intimidate him! He doesn't understand those words!"

Sometimes you have to just jump in and read.

I was privileged to play instruments with people a lot better than me because I learnt an unpopular instrument and got into some rather posh ensembles, where the flautists, for instance, had fought off tough competition to get in. I shut up and listened a lot, and did my best, and tried not to get in the way. It was bloody good for me. I was intimidated sometimes and it didn't feel good. but what did feel good was being a part of something so good. I could have said "I resign. I'll go back to Junior Wind Band" and that would have been easy. but I didn't want to.

Nor did I say "can we just play something I already know from Junior Wind Band?"

Hmm Pacific. Wasn't it Harlow who conducted those disturbing experiments separating primates from their mothers and observing the attachments the infants subsequently made to cloth - covered frames?

Parenthood is confusing. I really never saw myself as a "maternal" person. Then when I became a mother I was overwhelmed by the intensity of my feelings for my babies. The early weeks, even after a horrible delivery saw me in a misty maternal bubble. So whilst hormones have there place this wasn't about being female, I don't think. It was a response to what I had been through (pregnancy and birth) and the situation I was in (dependent infant)

So, what I find interesting is that obviously me being female meant that I was the one who "carried" delivered and fed our children, so I was the one who had those experiences. But if dh had experienced those things then I suspect he might well have had that "maternal rush".
He certainly was smitten by them both and has his own experience of each of their births.

That's one for the experimental biologists I suppose.
Maybe the progression of biological science will mean that male pregnancies will offer us social benefits (and difficulties) in the way that hormonal contraception or formula has.
IYSWIM.

Ok. Just read that back and I definitely need to go to bed now.