Please or to access all these features

Add post

Watch this thread

Save thread

Start a new thread

Flip thread

Hide thread

My feed

Active Unanswered threads

Getting started FAQ's

Unanswered threads Acronyms Talk guidelines

Hide shortcut buttons

Talk

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

Flip

1 2

Original poster

This has been bothering me. We didn't want the new Dr Who to be a woman.

48 replies

LynetteScavo · 05/08/2013 21:43

The DC and I decided we wanted the new Dr Who to be a man (DH didn't seem to care).

Then DS2 said "I hope it's not a woman. I hope it's a man and white." At which DS1 and I were DS1 was jumping up and down, saying "You are so racist!" I said "Oh, yes, lets just hope it's another middle class, white male." None of us were jumping up and down saying "Oh, you are so sexist!"

I personally felt it would be easier for the Doctor to slip from one ethnicity to another, than one gender to another.....

OP posts:

KatyMac · 05/08/2013 21:47

I think the change between male/female would be a far greater 'leap' for the imagination than that of race (possibly because people do 'change colour' when they get a tan)

Mind you I find those films where people dress up as other races revolting & I am less upset about cross dressing

Not sure where I'm, going with this

omaoma · 05/08/2013 21:50

I wanted him to be a fecking woman. But a change of skin colour or even body shape/haircut would have been nice (i think we just about get what Steven Moffat's type is now thanks...). Luckily DC and I were too busy having a sword fight and shouting 'girls are as good as boys!!' to notice the strange jumping-the-sharkathon that was the announcement programme.

Rufus43 · 05/08/2013 21:55

Was convinced he wouldn't be white, hated the idea of changing sex.

I'm not sure river would be too chuffed!

MorrisZapp · 05/08/2013 21:59

I can't be fagged with sci fi etc, and don't care really. But I think a female Dr Who would be a bit odd.

There was a thing in the Guardian about time travellers in popular culture always being male. There's one actress who's played a time travellers female non-time travelling partner in three films. And yes, one of them was The Time Travellers Wife, which I haven't seen but blow me, the book was shit.

AmandaPandtheTantrumofDoom · 05/08/2013 22:03

I think it shows how, for many people, sex is the central issue of personal identity. Probably even more so for white middle-class people.

Aside from nutty white supremacists, being white is very rarely central to someone's identity in a way of which they are conscious (it probably more accurate to say that not being of a UK ethnic minority is central). Likewise being middle class. So it is easy to see those things changing. It is unconscious privilege.

It might be interesting to see if a black character who changed actor could suddenly be white. I can't think of any franchises that aren't white men.

Sex also, at an objective level, changes a lot of things we see as central to who we are. River and the Doctor become a same sex couple. The Doctor becomes a mother, not a father. Etc.

Madratlady · 05/08/2013 22:05

I assumed that gender for the Doctor, and for all time lords, was fixed but appearance changed when regenerating.

oohaveabanana · 05/08/2013 22:05

I wanted it to be anything that wasn't a white middle class bloke. Would have loved a woman, but knew it wouldn't happen.

oohaveabanana · 05/08/2013 22:07

That said, if it had to be a white bloke, it's the right one

AmandaPandtheTantrumofDoom · 05/08/2013 22:07

Madrat - But race is more than appearance. Isn't it?

omaoma · 05/08/2013 22:08

apparently there was some mention about a time lord who changed gender once so it is possible...
why couldn't River and DW be a couple? they've already had Captain Jack ffs

Madratlady · 05/08/2013 22:11

Yes but the Doctor is a Time Lord. That is his race. Skin colour is his appearance.

AmandaPandtheTantrumofDoom · 05/08/2013 22:13

Omaoma - I didn't mean that we couldn't. I more meant that maybe we see moving from a straight relationship to a gay one is a more fundamental change in someone than regeneration allows. Some sort of 'core' of who we are that should stay the same in a given character.

Madrat- that's a good point. That it's just a timelord shell effectively. Were there male and female time lords?

RiaOverTheRainbow · 05/08/2013 22:15

There was mention of a Timelord who changed sex a few times, and of course Melody changed ethnicity, so there's no reason the Doctor couldn't (except that Moffat had already decided 12 would be a white man, for a change). In her first episode River makes a comment about fancying all but one of her mix-sexed team, so that shouldn't be an issue.

omaoma · 05/08/2013 22:22

Amanda - sure, but it is sci fi! can't think of any better arena to challenge established mores. Which Moffat has happily done a hundred times already for different topics. There aren't even any advertisers to offend, don't know what his excuse is

AmandaPandtheTantrumofDoom · 05/08/2013 22:27

Yes, I agree. I'd have liked to see a woman. I was just trying to explore why it felt so 'big' to think about having one.

RustyBear · 05/08/2013 22:32

I don't think Time Lord is the Doctor's race - it's his species, as opposed to being human. There have been females of the species, referred to as Time Ladies.

In 'The Doctor's Wife' the Doctor refers to another Time Lord, the Corsair who always had a particular tattoo "he didn't feel like himself without the tattoo. Or herself a couple of times". But it's not made clear whether that was a matter of choice, similar to a human male choosing to change sex, (though accomplished rather more quickly, if dramatically) or whether it was something over which the individual had no control.

The only other explicit reference that I remember was a somewhat throw-away remark as Eleven was reviewing his body after the regeneration - I forget the exact words, but he ran his hands through his hair and said something like "Hair - lots of hair. I'm a woman!" But I don't think that was intended to be a serious statement, it was Moffatt playing with the fans because of the speculation that the Doctor might regenerate as a woman, like the line in Blink about the TARDIS not being a real police box because the windows were wrong.

Rufus43 · 05/08/2013 22:42

Captain Jack was openly bisexual, River would have to possibly change from a heterosexual woman to a bi or lesbian

It would give me a bit of a shock to go to sleep tonight next to my dh and wake up nex to my dw

Rufus43 · 05/08/2013 22:45

And although river was very playful with her sexuality it may well have been a passing comment

RiaOverTheRainbow · 05/08/2013 22:55

So River basically stating she is bisexual doesn't count? If she can cope with regeneration in general male to female isn't that big a leap.

omaoma · 05/08/2013 22:55

at 'River would have to possibly change from a heterosexual woman to a bi or lesbian'... because that's never happened in real life before!

RedToothBrush · 05/08/2013 22:59

Honestly?

I don't think it would have been right for the Dr to have become a woman; this time round...

Why?

Because the script hasn't been set up enough to do that yet. It needs to be written in over a period of time to get the audience ready to be able to make the imagination take that leap. So far there have been a few comments that now make it a possibility, but I think there does need to be more work in this area to make it work.

Otherwise you'd end up with a situation where a woman plays the part, and effectively destroys it because the audience wasn't prepared and ready enough to accept it. Which would be no good for a feminist agenda.

Sci fo does tend to led in terms of equality, but it is able to do so because of the script and subject as a whole and the target audience being open enough to accept it at that moment in time.

I think you have to ask the right questions here. Is it really about Dr Who or roles that women play on tv in general?

Rufus43 · 06/08/2013 10:32

Happened to my friend thanks omaoma. So I am well aware it happens!

ria I take your point but didn't feel that it was a definite statement, unlike captain jack I think (tho happy to be corrected) who kept chasing/making comments to both sexes.

And to put it in context if my sexy young dr changed to a 90 year old one I would probably have an issue if I was married to him.

And actually I have said all that but we still don't know which Dr river married and that dr may have been female! So I will shut up now

(Except I agree with red)

TheSmallClanger · 06/08/2013 11:02

I always thought the Doctor only assumed a male appearance on Earth, and was actually neither male nor female.

SirChenjin · 06/08/2013 11:06

I didn't want it to be female, for all the reasons RedToothBrush gave. If/when it happens then I want it to be because the script and character has evolved to require a female, rather than a knee jerk reaction to a feminist agenda.

ElephantsAndMiasmas · 06/08/2013 12:19

Er, SirChenjin, "If/when it happens then I want it to be because the script and character has evolved to require a female, rather than a knee jerk reaction to a feminist agenda."

But THAT is the issue with having so few female characters on TV/in film. The rule that I express as "Only a woman if someone straight wants to put his cock in her, or she needs to be someone's mother." I.e. the DEFAULT character is a man, and writers only write the character as a female if she "needs" to be, for the plot. No-one ever says "All the scientists in this programme are men, a blatant pandering to the Men's Rights Agenda". But if you're to have a woman character, there needs to be a "reason" rather than just, say, because humans divide fairly evenly into male and female.

Flip

1 2