Women and weight.

[Darkesteyes]

Ive just had to hide a thread on AIBU about the 5:2 diet. There are people on that thread who are describing size 12 as fat. Saying that todays size 12 was a size 16 in the 70s.

Sorry. Im just having a rant really Ten years ago i went from a size 28 to a size 12. Nice to know that at a size 12 i was still classed as fat.

Apparently we have got so used to seeing obese ppl around that we now see overweight as the ideal Im just having a little rant Sorry.

They are the views i grew up around. Some co worker told her about the 600 cal thing apparently.
Absolutely fucking ridiculous Hoping to start WW on Wednesday financially permitting. Wonder what the consultant there would think of my mothers views.
It is lower than the Cambridge diet though i think their Sole Source plan is 500 only 100 cals less than her stupid suggestion. I told her if her co worker really thinks that and rigidly sticks to it then its highly likely shes got an eating disorder.

If i had DC i wouldnt be letting her anywhere near them.

People are different shapes and sizes, one may be fat at nine stone, another perfectly healthy and nice looking at 12 stone, it depends on height, bone structure, body shape, muscle mass and lifestyle. A size 12 today is much bigger than it used to be, in some stores up two sizes since the nineties so it's not in the 'slim' category anymore for the majority.

Most people eat way to much and don't get nearly enough physical activity, your body shows the world how much excess food you've consumed by your fat stores so naturally most people don't want to walk around with what's effectively a sign saying 'I'm nutritionally ignorant, greedy, lazy and spend my days gorging on junk and sitting on the couch'.

Our bodies are a product of our lifestyles and character. People want to appear attractive to others; intelligent, educated, disciplined and active which is why slim and toned is appealing, a healthy, moderate diet and physically active life will produce that.

Overfed, nonexercised men are just as unattractive as their female equivalents, it's not a gender issue, it's a food and movement one which betrays your lifestyle and character.

Its quite possible that im going to end up hiding my own thread.
zaty how the fuck can you possibly know that every bigger person you see in the street is bigger because of laziness.
Drugs like steroids and Tamoxifen can affect weight quite majorly. As can polycistic ovaries. Zaty do you know for sure that every bigger person you see is bigger through.................you know what FUCK IT Im fed up of all the fucking ignorance on here. IM FUCKING DONE!!!!!!

RE. Last post It wasnt directed at everyone on this thread. A lot of the posts have been very insightful.

ZATY you are basing someones character on what they LOOK LIKE Did i REALLY read that on a Feminist board. Your post is the kind of thing id expect to see in Closer magazine.

He was attractive smart and had a future in politics.

Serial killer Ted Bundy.

On 5:2 you eat 600 calories on the fasting days, OP, maybe that's where your DM got the idea?or 2/7 of it, anyway.

Well, zatya, most of us don't wish to walk around wearing a sign that shows the world we are shallow, judgemental, cruel and superficial, which is why we don't post narrow-minded bilge that hurts and insults other people.

Most of us want the world to see that we're kind, intelligent, compassionate and educated, so we think about what we say and the impact it has on those around us and don't make pronouncements that make us sound like vain ciphers.

sinistersal It was from "How to be a Woman". Caitlin Moran points out that overeating is a "coper's addiction" because it's a way of self-medicating which least impacts your ability to function (vs. being off your head on crystal meth or wine). In other words, it's a selfless addiction because the only person you impact negatively is yourself.

I'm conflicted on the whole weight thing. On the one hand, yes, women are under far too much media pressure to be thin. That's not good (and is largely perpetuated by other women, which is a whole other issue). On the other hand, 66% of UK women are overweight. 25% are obese. That's not good either. I don't see a generation of women incapacitated by diabetes, breast cancer, ovarian cancer, overstrained joints, heart disease etc etc. as a good outcome.

Demonising fat people is obviously unacceptable, but telling people it's fine to be fat when it increases their chances of dying early from one of a whole smorgasboard of unpleasant chronic diseases is also not really the way forward. The issue is that the causes of obesity are so complex and multi-stranded that it's very difficult for public health initiatives to have an impact.

I mean, experts cant even agree about why we're fat

Yes, I see these things as two currents Rich. One: Obesity linking into health (affecting men and women equally). Two: Body obsessions where 'fat' just represents a normal range of healthy weights (affecting women disproportionately).

I have a family with both sorts of people: three who are morbidly obese and two who are normal weights but with self-esteem hanging on their weight. It's something I had in my early 20's (body obsession for want of a better descriptor) and so I know what it's like to live through the head fuck of daily weigh-ins, calorie counting, mirror inspections. I just didn't realise so many other women live this way and continue into mature adult life carrying this baggage. It really makes me sad to think about it.

I'm sure I'm going to get absolutely slammed by the OP, with all sorts of 'thread hiding' histrionics... but ... I don't think fat is a feminist issue.

I undoubtedly think body shape is a feminist issue (in that we're really only presented with one ideal feminine body shape and that is wrong), and I also think body image is a feminist issue - as women's self-esteem is so inextricably tied up in our view of ourselves.

But I don't think fat is a feminist issue. Purely because humans - male and female - are not meant to be fat. We can provide every explanation under the sun as to why we are overweight, but humans aren't meant to be overweight. Obesity as a widespread occurrence, is only a very, very recent phenomenon.

Demonising fat people is obviously unacceptable, but telling people it's fine to be fat when it increases their chances of dying early from one of a whole smorgasboard of unpleasant chronic diseases is also not really the way forward.

But when the Daily Mail and others put up pictures of some celeb in a bikini and berating her for having put on weight, I don't think they do it out of concern for her health.

I would imagine the op was including those things in her "fat Is a feminist issue" idea? Susie Orbach's sequal to that book "bodies" deals with issues of body image, eating disorders, emotional eating etc. I think sometimes it can be disheartening for people who need to lose weight for health reasons to be constantly bombarded with images of unattainable thinness in magazines and on TV because it is so far from where they are. Focusing on health rather than
weight or shape would be much better. Incidentally, I went to an aerobics class at my local gym run by an instructor who was around 50 and easily a size 14. I could even remotely keep up and I am a fit, 34 year old size 8/10!

OP talks about size 12 being fat, DonDraper. Please don't say you think size 12 is unhealthly. Whatever your answer, lots of people DO think women with healthy BMIs are 'fat' or unattractive, or unhealthy. Surely that IS a women's issue because I don't see or hear a lot of men being castigated for muffin tops, cankles and thighs that (shock) touch.

I also think it's worth pointing out that men do also have "issues". A lot of the time they feel a pressure to be muscular, buff and strong which is also not attainable for a lot of men but the "fat" thing is definitely more focused on women.

It is ironic that the more body obsessed we all are as a society, the fatter and sicker we become.

Each fad just fuels the neurosis and we are all programmed to see food as comforting. Or eat out of boredom. It's such a vicious cycle to break.

And yet on the flip side, there is a huge taboo about criticising people for being overweight. Whilst I do agree OP, some people are overweight because of illness and disability, the vast majority of people just eat way way way too much....

Lesser my mum made it VERY clear that she meant 600 calories every day all the time.
I grew up around this. When i was 17 she did the Cambridge Diet and her hair started to fall out.

I dont think size 12 is big I hid the 5:2 thread because of others that were saying that
Don im not going to roast you at all. I think yr body shape explanation is a good one.

But i agree with EBear When the Daily Mail do what they do and also Heat and Closer who point out the "body faults" on their covers and because they are on the covers you dont have to buy the mags to see it.

What makes it a feminist issue for me is the fact that 11 years ago when i was bigger i was abused for it in the street by MEN not WOMEN and i really dont think they were reading Heat.

Yes, exactly, that's my point. Body shape is a feminist issue.

When the insidious Daily Mail castigates someone for not losing their baby weight immediately, or for being too thin, or too curvy, or just not the 'feminine ideal', of course they're not doing it out of comcern for the woman's health!

They're policing women's body shape, and effectively saying only one shape (slim, hourglass, flat stomach, pert beasts, thin thighs) is acceptable, and I hate that.

And yes, LeBFG - I do think that is a women's issue - as I said in my post? I just disagree with Susie O, in that I don't think fat is the issue per se; body shape and body image are.

Slammed DonDraper? Hardly Your point made repeatedly and we haven't needed the smelling salts or worse yet.

I do think it's disingenous to try to separate body shape from fat. You could be a lovely hourglass shape, but if it's not a size 8 one it's inferior. An hourglass shaped woman still won't wear certain clothes because they make her hips look fat, instead they accentuate the slim waist. They wouldn't wear jeans that give them muffin top - that's not wanting to draw attention to any rolls of fat, on an attractive (or not) shape.

Fat is of course a health issue, too, obviously, for the individual concerned and at a population level. And men suffer from body image issues too. As do children, increasingly. But looks are only one aspect of a man's life, generally, whereas with women it is seen as a thing that defines you.

I didn't say anything about anyone other than the OP not agreeing with me.

The ideal feminine shape is not just an hourglass, so I think we're probably agreeing to a certain extent. The ideal feminine body shape is all of the things I mentioned above; if you have just one of them, you don't have the ideal shape.

And this is unacceptable, and, I think, more harmful. If there was greater acceptance of the myriad different shapes women come in, I think it would go a long way to improve how we see ourselves and feel about ourselves. Kind of like the way it is for men.

I still don't see how fat is the issue per se. Human aren't meant to be fat - it's only our sedentary lifestyles, and the mass availability of food that has made us (men, women and children) this way.

I'm still not seeing it, tbh, seems like splitting hairs to me, to no good effect. If you are carrying extra weight you won't have all those attributes you described. Of course, fat is not the only issue. Pertness of boobs, shapeliness of legs etc matter too.

A certain amount of body is a good thing, from a health point of view. But that isn't the beauty ideal. In that sense it is a feminist issue.

I'm more than happy to agree to disagree.

I totally see it, and am bemused that others can't. Women come in all differrent shapes and sizes - tall, short, broad-shouldered, long-waisted, short-legged, athletic, big-bottomed, flat-bottomed, pronounced waist, no waist, strong-thighed, knobbly-kneed, and don't even get me started on the zillion different shapes breasts come in.

Yet, we're only ever presented with one, very narrow definition of how a woman should look and it's virtually unobtainable for the vast majority; almost certainly so for women who've had children.

So different from the situation for men. Men are men regardless of shape, regardless of age, regardless of parental status.

The Dove campaigns try their best to present different shapes and looks, but it's a drop in the ocean, and (possibly subconsciously) seen as almost too gimmicky (patronising?) by most people.

Again, humans aren't meant to be fat.

I just think they are too tightly interwoven to tease apart but let's disagree on that, so

what do you think to my point that there is a wider Healthy weight spectrum than Attractive Weight spectrum?

The dove campaign does annoy me slightly. I'm never entirely sure why but I do find it patronising. I think it's also because they are saying "fat" is ok and actually I would rather we all said "actually fat isn't ok cos it will kill you"

I'd rather see realistic healthy women. Saggy boobs and wobbly skin. Although I'm toned and fit looking my body is far from the skinny ideal but I'm honestly proud of what it has done. I don't care that my boobs nearly skim the floor. I don't have a huge amount to thank my parents for, emotionally, but one thing they did do was instil body self confidence, basically by being totally disinterested in looks, vanity themselves...

The other answer is that none of us ever buys the daily mail. Which is no great loss....