Women and weight.

[Darkesteyes]

Ive just had to hide a thread on AIBU about the 5:2 diet. There are people on that thread who are describing size 12 as fat. Saying that todays size 12 was a size 16 in the 70s.

Sorry. Im just having a rant really Ten years ago i went from a size 28 to a size 12. Nice to know that at a size 12 i was still classed as fat.

Apparently we have got so used to seeing obese ppl around that we now see overweight as the ideal Im just having a little rant Sorry.

Tom Cruise isn't overweight, he's undertall - come on, everyone knows that. Says moi, 5'3 on a stand-up-straight day.

For me, fat is not a feminist issue, it is a serious health issue affecting both men and women.

I've just been on a Chat thread about fat women. And I can only conclude that fat (worries about weight) is overwhelmingly a woman's issue (OK, I know the skinny boy fad means blokes are getting anorexic too, but women are disproportionatly affected). I can NOT believe the posts. One after the next about how 'fat' they are at size 8/10. How even a couple of pounds show.

This is a real issue.

Why do they feel this way?

How terribly sad it is that so many women are so miserable because the scale moves up a notch or two.

OK, rant over .

It is terribly sad, LeBFG, it's true (not having read that thread but know what you mean)

It really does blight our lives. Think of all the things that we could be doing, or the things we could be thinking about.

The saddest thing really is how we use weight and self hatred to bond with each other. No one can admit to being happy enough with or even indifferent to our bodies. Or not quite our bodies, with how our bodies look. It is probably to do with not wanting to appear arrogant, as a bonding exercise. There is also the unexamined assumption that what we look like is a direct reflection of who we are. there are two tests we have to pass, and our bodies do it for us - The Patriarchal Fuckability Test, (as I've seen it on here- great phrase) and the Morality Test - Self control, self sacrifice etc.

Ok I have read it. Skimmed it, I should say.

One thing that stood out was all the women who were a good few stones overweight tended to just state that and not elaborate. The people who were less overweight or near enough to 'normal' weight went into specifics about what they didn't like/how they felt etc. So what's that all about? Perhaps the ideal is to be slim (or slimmish) and healthy (or healthyish) but hate yourself anyway? And if you don't fit that, be quiet.

BFG thats the reason i hid the 5:2 thread. People wearing clothes in a size 10 wernt only criticising themselves There was a sinister undercurrent there that size 12 was fat. Im afraid a lot of ppl on these threads dont just criticise themselves they criticise and laugh at other ppl over their weight (see upthread) apparently im "hilarious"

Last January there were 4/5 fat bashing threads in AIBU. I bet it will be the same there again in 5 months time. I might be staging my own #mumsnetsilence / #AIBUsilence come January.

Does anyone seriously believe that overweight men don't feel miserable, unhealthy and self-conscious about their weight? I am here to tell you that they do. And the best way for them to address that is to lose weight and get fit. Just the same as women. It is to no ones benefit to be overweight.

I am currently addressing it thankyou for your extremely helpful advice.

I agree about the competitiveness, it ridiculous, ive noticed on here eating crap when pg and then spending quality baby-mooning time dieting.
People were thinner though in the 50s they had to move more and eat a bit better/cook meals rather than dash to a tesco metro for a bar of chocolate. Not as far as 13 being a 16 though! People are healthy at their natural size, women need some body fat especially at child bearing age!
You lose muscle mass as you get older so may fit into smaller size than you used to.
Also people on tv who seem 'normal' sizes are probably really quite slim like holly willoughby

Muscle weighs more than fat and im well hard

The only thing I'd say that if fat isn't an issue why did you lose weight in the first place.
I've gone from a size 12 to a 16 but I don't like it.
I look too round and my face isn't as pretty, I can't dress the way I like to and don't feel healthy.
I'm having thyroid surgery in September so I'm hoping l be able to shift it.
I don't want to lose the weight for any other reason than I'm unhappy at this size.

Vaguely relevent but I seem to recall a similar thread on here before - someone made the point that when people are under pressure/stressed/unhappy they self medicate for a bit of a lift. For women they often do it with sugar (which works as a drug in a biochemical sense?) because they tend to have the caring responsibilities - you can't be off your face on drink when the baby will wake in an hour but you can go to the biscuit tin to no immediate ill effect. Interesting.

I think it is perhaps worth pointing out that the book "Fat is a Feminist Issue' which is where the phrase comes from, is a book about eating disorders, particularly about compulsive over-eating and the issues for women in our society that lead into that. It is the companion book to "Hunger Strike,' the feminist book about anorexia nervosa.

It is not about saying it is absolutely fine for a particular person to be overweight. If somebody is happy and fulfilled and happens to be fat, that is a very different situation to people who are overweight because they are unhappy due to serious issues with food. Just as somebody might be happy and fulfilled while being underweight and somebody else might be underweight because they have an eating disorder.

Having suffered from an eating disorder, and just recently posted about it, I definitely feel like the media and fashion/diet industries just feed off of our insecurities. And I do think it is still an issue predominantly affecting women. In the eating disorder unit I was in there were 18 women ranging in ages between 16 and 60 but only two men, both about 19. I also think the obsession with not just looking thin but also looking young is having a devastating effect on
some women and again disproportionately affects women over men. It does feel good to rant about this stuff. I'm coming over to this area more often!

I've been living in a very non-TOWIE culture for a while now Fred and when I read these things on here or visit my nieces in the UK the contrast comes as quite a shock.

Women should be pursuing things to make them happy: personal development, self-expression, education and so on. Not spending their precious lives dwelling distructively on their self-image. I can understand fat/weight is an issue if you want to make a career out of your physical appearance (actor, model, socialite) but for the rest of us it's just what we look like. Us, humans. And it doesn't just seem to affect the young either. So many mature women, who work, have settled home lives, agonising over a flabby belly.....

An enlightened view, and one that I whole-heartedly agree with. But as a secondary school teacher I see young girls frequently caught up in the need to be thin, popular and trendy. I feel the culture they are growing up in is not supportive of strong, confident young women and instead focuses disproportionately on looks.

It is a feminist issue because it affects women disproportionately than it does men. It doesn't matter if it's men or women being the ones saying "You must look a certain way," the issue is that it's almost entirely directed at women. It is starting to affect men but I don't think it's anywhere near to the extent that it is heaped on women.

I consider myself very lucky in that I am naturally slim AND my own mother had no body issues, never dieted (we are all slim, and struggle to keep weight on) didn't weigh herself and spend hours in front of the mirror bemoaning her appearance. As a result I have grown up (as has my sister) with it just totally not being an issue for me at all. The only thing I have ever worried about is my boobs being too small, and I'm not bothered about that any more (although that is in a large part because my male DP says he likes them, so perhaps not totally healthy or feminist)

This is a fantastic article about talking to girls - since I have read it I have noticed people doing it so often, and yet they never comment on boys' appearance unless they are dressed as spiderman, or something.

I would like to see more activism in this area. What can we do to change the state of things?

Feminists at this point like to suggest censorship of one form or another. I just can't believe this we have any significant effect.

I would like to see a lot more intervention at secondary schools and probably before that age. Inspirational talkers and workshops designed to challenge ideas and preconceptions. Targeting not just girls, but boys too. Teenagers are after all respond with a heightened sensitivity to our own values - they are reflecting the society they live in. I think I would find being a teenager today very hard indeed .

Yoni, just read the article. It's so true. I have a 6 month old niece and it is so difficult not to constantly gush over how cute she is. It is an unhealthy double standard. I am pregnant myself and worry about potentially bringing up a girl in this looks and weight obsessed society.

LeBFG, I absolutely agree. I do my best as a teacher to stress the importance of having hobbies, being interested in the world around you, getting to know people without judging them in looks but I often feel it is a losing battle.

In my previous life I taught secondary too Fred. The very last day of school I didn't do any teaching but just talked to my classes. I rememer very clearly talking to a group of girls (top set but caked in makeup etc) and they were genuinely surprised, in a good way, when I said nothing was making them wear make up, the world wouldn't fall apart if they didn't have to iron their clothes or other people's if they didn't want to. And so on. I wonder if any of it stuck . It was just like I was the first person who had ever questioned these things. I was as surprised as them.

I have a boy and a little 5mo girl so I know what you mean. I'm at the coal face so to speak right now. I try to notice things like how strong she is and how dexterous she is rather than going on (and on...) about how cute she is (she is cute though). I also painted DS's toe nails purple this morning. Does that make me a feminist mum?

Ha, very cool! I do think I'd find it easier to bring up a boy who respects women than to bring up a girl who respects herself but a lot of that is probably coloured by my own, very looks focused, upbringing. I definitely believe it's important to try to open young women's minds to feminism at school. And I remember life lessons from around that time so it must sink in for some. And by feminism I really mean self respect and the will to question the status quo in society.

Le BFG - why did you leave teaching? We need more teachers like you!!

It's ingrained in society to tell a little girl she is "pretty". I wonder if that is when the damage is done. I am asking my family and friends not to constantly tell DD she looks "pretty" and instead praise her efforts at drawing etc. they are a bit crap about it. But if a toddler thinks she has to look pretty then what message is that?

And don't get me started on the sister in law who moans how "fat" she is (clearly isn't) in front of the kids and pinches her tummy. It makes me mad.

I don't know if any of this makes me a feminist - or just a mum who wants her kids to grow up as strong independent happy women whose life goals aren't about how they look...

Just got back from parents house. Interesting revelation from my mum . She was very insistent that 600 calories is all you need to eat each day.
My niece and i stared at her horrified and tried to explain why this is not the case.
She was insistent She loved Princess Diana and once gave me a size 10 skirt when id lost ten stone and got into a 12 "you could try to lose a little more" My niece lives with her and is a normal healthy weight. Shes a very strong minded 18 year old thank God. Dont know what else to type Still reeling fron the 600 calories remark.

Bloody hell! Even the Cambridge Diet isn't that low! I think they do 800 calories a day. Where on earth did she get that from?

iirc correctly your mum has a number of ...erm... interesting views, darkest