Feeling a bit let down by 'the sisterhood'

[Hopingitwillallbefine]

I am a new(ish) mum to a dd (11 months) and have just returned to work full time. This was not a decision I took lightly but made for a number of reasons, including the fact that we really need the money for a deposit for a new house and I love my job and have worked hard to get where I am, and would like to continue to progress in my career. My DH also works full time. We are fortunate enough to have reasonable working hours (him 9-5, me 8-4) which mean that between us we are at home with dd until about 8.15am in the morning and from 5pm in the evening. Between 8.30 and 5pm dd is at nursery. We chose her nursery because we loved it immediately and continue to be impressed and happy with the quality and standard of care it offers. Dd LOVES nursery, has made a great bond with her keyworker and seems to have such lovely, fun and full days.

Apologies for the boring details of our life - all pretty normal stuff. However the reason for my post and what has really upset me/pissed me off in the past few months has been the attitudes of other women towards the decisions we have made as a family about working hours and childcare arrangements. I have lost count of the occasions that I have been met with undisguised horror, disgust or pity when I've told female friends or colleagues I am back at work full time. Not all of them, but enough to make me feel like a dreadful mother. Responses like "is there nothing you can economise on so that you can drop a day or two?" Or "god you poor thing, that must be miserable". Even my manager has asked me if i want to consider going part time now I am a mum. Similarly, I have been treated to a variety of unhelpful and at times offensive remarks from friends and colleagues about our decision to use a nursery including suggestions that we are risking our dd developing attachment disorder or questions like "is there no way your family could help?" (No), "wouldn't you at least prefer a childminder?" (No), "have you thought about how damaging it could be if your dd's keyworker left?" Etc etc.

These comments are so frequent that I now have a pre-prepared mini speech when people ask about work or childcare to try and head off all the criticisms and 'helpful suggestions'. What annoys me is the implicit assumption that obviously I am only back at work FT out of absolute necessity and that if there were any alternatives at all I would of course be working part time or not at all as all good mothers should - and to admit that I have chosen to return full time partly because I still give a toss about my career and enjoy being at work is tantamount to declaring that I couldn't care less about my dd. Further, I wouldn't dream of questioning another woman's childcare choices and have been really upset and surprised by how many women seem to think that nursery is virtual child abuse and it is their responsibility to educate me on the reasons why. But finally, and the reason for my post in this section of MN is that all of this, without exception has come from other women. Not one man has made me feel bad about my choices or questioned them in any way. Similarly, my husband, who earns exactly the same as me, has never been made to feel bad about being at work FT. Nobody has ever suggested that he might want to go part time now we have a child.

So I just feel a bit let down by women at the moment. I know it is impossible to 'have it all' and I'm not pretending otherwise, but I would like to continue to pursue my career while providing as much care, love and attention to my dd as I can. I love her more than I knew possible and love spending time with her. I feel genuinely excited every day when I go to pick her up and we have a lovely two hours together every evening after work when I am totally and utterly focused on her. We have lovely weekends as a family and spending time together having fun is so important to me. But I also love being at work and enjoy my day and feel so fulfilled by it. Shouldn't other women be supporting me and encouraging me, isn't this equality and freedom what we have fought for for years?

This is all way over my head now and I couldn't possibly contribute anything intelligent or articulate enough ...

but I wanted to come back to say, essentially, Buffy, you rock.

Teetering can we just establish for the sake of clarity/sanity - you have been extremely clear about your view having repeated it again and again and again. Despite the fact that this is not a discussion about whether or not nursery is the right choice for a baby. There is no need to repeat that view again - nobody is challenging it or telling you that it is wrong. Neither are you being accused of being racist, I'm sorry you haven't been able to follow that argument. The points that buffy and garlic made have been really interesting, useful and articulately presented and have certainly given me a lot to think about. Essentially they are saying that the acceptability of expressing certain views is largely governed by current social norms which have changed over the years and will continue to do so. Thirty years ago it might have been acceptable to remark that same sex relationships or inter-racial relationships were not right because of the culture at the time allowed people to express those views with impunity. That culture has changed meaning that at present it is no longer socially acceptable to make these remarks. However is continues to be socially acceptable and perhaps even subtlety or subconsciously encouraged for women to criticise other women for returning to work therefore maintaining a social norm where men are the breadwinners and women stay at home. Perhaps in the future this culture will change and these remarks will no longer be considered acceptable. So no you are not being called a racist, it is just interesting to consider that racism is not acceptable because it implies that one race should be treated differently from another, whereas gender discrimination which implies that one gender should be treated differently from the other continues to be socially acceptable.

Yes I see that hoping, but I also see that people will offer advice based on their own experiences ... are you friends really attacking you when they say "is there nothing you can economise on so that you can drop a day or two?" or "god you poor thing, that must be miserable" or are they just going off their own experiences? ...

Why do you feel attacked and unsupported when really all they could be doing is imagining/remembering what it was like when they went back to work and (in their minds maybe) trying to help?

Or instead of that ^^ if it's easier to think your friends are commenting because it's socially acceptable to talk about parenting and childcare like it was socially acceptable to talk about n*ers years ago then go for that .... just dream of the day when we don't talk to eachother at all eh .. just shut up in case we offend

OR dream of the day when your hubbys mates talk about their experiences and offer advice to him?

OR wonder wtf it's all getting to you ... like 78bunion says, get ya stock pile of smartarse answers together and get on with it!

Yes ... you're saying in the grand scheme of things 'this' is why it's happening and it's just like when 'this' and 'this' was allowed to happen

You're saying it's misogyny, the same as rasicm, the same as homophobia ... 2 have become socially unacceptable to talk about yet misogyny is alive and kicking and this is a prime example ... I'm just saying, it's not :/

Well where is the hate?

Well, when 'this' and 'this' was allowed to happen, people didn't feel like they hated blacks, or gays, etc. They always had some friends who were black or gay, or had a disabled child, and they genuinely thought they were speaking out of concern.

Their views were informed by people operating from a base of hatred: political speakers, certain media, etc. But those opinion-leaders presented arguments which sounded like caring common sense.

Continuing the parallels with criticisms of working women: 75% of British women have children. As long as the population generally believes mothers should be with their children, that applies heavy pressure on 75% of the female workforce to downgrade their careers. The economic advantages to a patriarchy should be obvious.

'best start' .. 'mother and child'

argh, there you go again!

ok, a baby in full time care blah blah (as previously said, you all know my opinion) ... why do you assume I think the mother should stay at home? ... You are forcing your cultural misogynistic opinions on me! ... and it's infuriating! ... ok, OP I get where you're coming from ... these fuckin women!

Interesting thread. I am not going to attempt to contribute seriously at this point but just wanted to say, OP, that I went back to work full time when my baby was five months old. There was no financial need for me to do so, we could certainly manage on one salary if we had to. I love my job (and have a lot invested in my career) and to be honest I hated being at home with a baby at that point in my life. The fact that I hated it so much makes me sad (as I had expected to enjoy it), but the decision about working when I did is not something I have regretted for a moment. I don't see it as a strongly political choice - I can well imagine wanting and enjoying a longer maternity leave in different circumstances (if I was bored of my job, if my pregnancy had been any less horrific than it was, if our son had come along a bit later than he did, if I hadn't become very depressed after the birth).

When people say surprising/tactless/unsupportive things I try to tell myself that those comments are usually about them and their feelings, not really about me. I have had surprisingly few comments of the sort you describe, but then most of my colleagues are men or (a handful of) childless women which probably explains it. I'm also in a career where part-time work isn't really an option.

I still feel angry about how limited the options were for DH and I in the first few months. I would have been much happier (and become much less unwell) if I could have worked for, say, two or three hours a day almost from the beginning; and DH would have been happier and less stressed too if he could have had his hours reduced by that amount for the first few months. We split the work of parenting equally but we had no choice but to put up with an extremely unequal division at the beginning.

Screaming into the wind is fun

Great contribution Kalidasa, I don't think theres anything wrong with your decision at all ... It's a shame hubby couldn't cut hours more, that is what's wrong with the way it is ... childcare should not be assumed to be down to the Mothers (but that doesn't mean that women should not discuss it)

Buffy .. I don't assume women should be at home with the kids, never have and you assuming I assume that is ... well ... I cba going round in circles ... I understand where you're coming from, but I don't think you get me ... and in the grand scheme of things ... it doesn't matter

OP ... kick ass

I am defo outta here!

Kalidasa, you sound like me. I was not very happy at home with my baby all day every day. I love her so much and I have persecuted myself extensively about this but there it is. It wasn't until I went back to work that I realised I was unhappy and also how much happier I am now.
Buffy this discussion has been really valuable to me, I can hear you screaming! I genuinely feel like I have learnt a lot from what you and garlic have said and it has given me a whole new perspective on the issue e.g the parallels with other types of acceptable persecution and the reasons for this. This has also helped me to feel like I can cope now if and when it happens again and that I won't have to scurry off feeling crap and making half hearted excuses for what a terrible person I am - thank you. Seeing these remarks as an albeit unwitting symptom of a far larger cultural issue really makes a lot of sense.

I certainly agree with Buffy's comments. The fact it may be culturally okay in some groups in the UK (although no one would dare voice it in my presence of course!! they would not dare) to make sexist comments that support misogynistic views that women are better off at home with babies does not of course mean that people ought to think it's fine to express those views, particularly as the result can be women thinking it is perfectly okay that women ruin careers by going part time or giving up work.

Like kali I like my work (went back full time with babies about 2 weeks old). I think it is wonderful when women adore their work and their children and have both in their lives. It's very manageable and men know they are on to a good thing by usually achieving that lovely balance, but dark sexist forces work to persuade women not to return full time, something a lot of them then do regret later.

I know teetering has gone now, but a response anyway:

it's not that people think you're saying mothers should stay home with children, teetering; what's pissing people off is your repeated and unfounded assertion that putting children in full-time childcare doesn't give them the best start (your words).

Is it pissing you off? ... maybe you should try reading what I'm saying instead of assuming any shit you want just so you can go on the attack ..

I don't think babies should ... (oh seriously, can I be fuckin arsed?) ...

1 more time ... we mash up our experiences and dish out advice, so yeah, in my experience I don't think putting babies in full time care is beneficial to the baby ... you pissed off again now? ... Good.

Don't bother asking why ... just attack again, go on ... if it makes you feel clever or helps with your anger issues then go for it

By the way, you got my words wrong ... but I wouldn't expect you to read what I type properly while being so enraged

Teetering, is what you are saying is that if you worked with OP's DH you would say to him "I don't think babies should be in care more than 8 hours a day, are you going to cut down your hours?"