Feeling a bit let down by 'the sisterhood'

[Hopingitwillallbefine]

I am a new(ish) mum to a dd (11 months) and have just returned to work full time. This was not a decision I took lightly but made for a number of reasons, including the fact that we really need the money for a deposit for a new house and I love my job and have worked hard to get where I am, and would like to continue to progress in my career. My DH also works full time. We are fortunate enough to have reasonable working hours (him 9-5, me 8-4) which mean that between us we are at home with dd until about 8.15am in the morning and from 5pm in the evening. Between 8.30 and 5pm dd is at nursery. We chose her nursery because we loved it immediately and continue to be impressed and happy with the quality and standard of care it offers. Dd LOVES nursery, has made a great bond with her keyworker and seems to have such lovely, fun and full days.

Apologies for the boring details of our life - all pretty normal stuff. However the reason for my post and what has really upset me/pissed me off in the past few months has been the attitudes of other women towards the decisions we have made as a family about working hours and childcare arrangements. I have lost count of the occasions that I have been met with undisguised horror, disgust or pity when I've told female friends or colleagues I am back at work full time. Not all of them, but enough to make me feel like a dreadful mother. Responses like "is there nothing you can economise on so that you can drop a day or two?" Or "god you poor thing, that must be miserable". Even my manager has asked me if i want to consider going part time now I am a mum. Similarly, I have been treated to a variety of unhelpful and at times offensive remarks from friends and colleagues about our decision to use a nursery including suggestions that we are risking our dd developing attachment disorder or questions like "is there no way your family could help?" (No), "wouldn't you at least prefer a childminder?" (No), "have you thought about how damaging it could be if your dd's keyworker left?" Etc etc.

These comments are so frequent that I now have a pre-prepared mini speech when people ask about work or childcare to try and head off all the criticisms and 'helpful suggestions'. What annoys me is the implicit assumption that obviously I am only back at work FT out of absolute necessity and that if there were any alternatives at all I would of course be working part time or not at all as all good mothers should - and to admit that I have chosen to return full time partly because I still give a toss about my career and enjoy being at work is tantamount to declaring that I couldn't care less about my dd. Further, I wouldn't dream of questioning another woman's childcare choices and have been really upset and surprised by how many women seem to think that nursery is virtual child abuse and it is their responsibility to educate me on the reasons why. But finally, and the reason for my post in this section of MN is that all of this, without exception has come from other women. Not one man has made me feel bad about my choices or questioned them in any way. Similarly, my husband, who earns exactly the same as me, has never been made to feel bad about being at work FT. Nobody has ever suggested that he might want to go part time now we have a child.

So I just feel a bit let down by women at the moment. I know it is impossible to 'have it all' and I'm not pretending otherwise, but I would like to continue to pursue my career while providing as much care, love and attention to my dd as I can. I love her more than I knew possible and love spending time with her. I feel genuinely excited every day when I go to pick her up and we have a lovely two hours together every evening after work when I am totally and utterly focused on her. We have lovely weekends as a family and spending time together having fun is so important to me. But I also love being at work and enjoy my day and feel so fulfilled by it. Shouldn't other women be supporting me and encouraging me, isn't this equality and freedom what we have fought for for years?

wow ... someone asked why I could think that way instead of telling me to fuck off .. thanks hope :)

I am thinking of the baby (not child, but baby) and the bond that can't be built by not being the main carer, my opinion is based completely on the baby, not the mother or father.

I don't automatically think the mother should give up her career to look after the baby, I think as a couple they could maybe work out it out together ... in this case they have, the baby is in full time care. Yes it works for them, we've been told again and again, but does it work for the baby? .. is it best? .. I just don't think so ...

What makes me feel I have the right to say that, what makes the people in RL say that to the OP? .. It's human nature to mish mash all our experiences and spit them out again, of course I don't think the OP is going to quit her job and go running to the nursery to care for her baby, tbh I don't care what she does .... I'm on a public forum, I've got a spare 5 mins and I'm killing it ... In RL those that say something to OP probably care?

And finally! ... they don't say anything to the hubby because they are sexist bastards

'Yes it works for them, we've been told again and again, but does it work for the baby? .. is it best? .. I just don't think so ... '

I know I've said this several times, teetering, and I have no problem with you voicing that opinion, but that isn't the issue on this thread. You could have the discussion on what's best for babies on a separate thread.

Thank you, Buffy, for putting it clearly :)

There are layers of these things. If I see a parent smack a child which I believe is morally wrong and appalling even if within the law I always object. I see that as a moral duty. If a toddler is running down a busy road with no parent around and might be hurt I step in. If I hear a racist comment from a taxi driver I always point out that i disagree.

if someone is very fat or too thin or feeding a child ice cream I don't interfere as I do not regard that as so bad and the moral obligation to intervene is not there.

If women make sexist choices which damage other women and their children by choosing to give up work or go part time then there is a moral duty to point out their error in the hope of ensuring they take the better moral course of full time work. Similarly a non working mother who thinks nursery damages babies may feel they need to point out they believe (erroneously of course) that that is bad for children. They think it is much more important to say that than saying something ilke - you look fat in those jeans which most of us would never say to anyone as it is just hurtful and is not likely to help the person lose weight.

It might be worth drawing attention, here, to what happens to women in the reverse situation. I've been following the story of Heather Frost, a Daily Mail hate target with 11 children, for whom the council has purchased a newly built 6-bed house.

Frost does get maintenance from her ex (I don't know about the previous ones), has been on benefits for 7 years and is recovering from cancer. Nonetheless, she and her children are being subjected to so much persecution that she's considering turning the new house down. The Daily Mail's readers, naturally, are eager to yell "Get a bloody job!" and call her a "breeder".

Childcare for the 7 young children would, of course, be extortionate. She's still weak from her illness. And there are not so many jobs available for women who have never been employed. Ironically, these same DM readers would have bloody loved her before she separated from her ex: earth mother; devoted to her children; not scrounging off the state (kept by a man.)

It doesn't take a genius to see that the only "acceptable" circumstance for a woman with children is to be kept by a man. It doesn't take a feminist to point out that this is a high-risk strategy for most women. But, perhaps, it does take a feminist to ask why women are keen to force this dependent state on other women?

If women make sexist choices which damage other women and their children by choosing to give up work or go part time then there is a moral duty to point out their error in the hope of ensuring they take the better moral course of full time work.

But this is not true. The point is that both staying at home and going full time work are valid choices. One is not morally superior to the other, although (as demonstrated) each side can think it is right or doing what is better.

garlic I'm thinking about the comparison to commenting on appearances. When I dyed my hair somewhat dramatically (and not entirely intentionally :) ) magenta, comments ranged from "ooh that's brave" (veiled criticism) to "ah well, it'll grow out" (not-so veiled criticism), with the occasional smattering of "that looks fab".

I suppose people comment based firstly on their own feelings and experiences, and yes, no doubt thoughtlessly, because they think the OP must actually, really, deep-down, think the same as they do, hence the "helpful" suggestions like "couldn't you cut down to just a couple of days a week".

I'm actually loling here .. I have said something that I think kind of fits in with this topic, yet I'm told to go start another thread because it's not close enough to the topic for some people .. YET others can make out commenting on childcare is the same as being blatantly racist ... haha!

They are not easy issues. Someone might have very strong views on smacking (I do) and feel that is physical violence that ought to be banned. Others will think it is not very significant at all and not something there is any moral obligation to intervene over.

Someone might feel if a child is not with its mother 24/7 even sleeping with her for the first 2 or 3 years the child is damaged (some cultures see the UK as guilty of child abuse because we tend not to sleep with our babies for example) and that they really must lobby and work towards changing things. Similar issue arise over breastfeeding.

Generally I am on the side of most free speech even if the other person thinks smacking is exactly what children need or bottle feeding is best.

Indeed some may as suggested above be so worried about the cost tot en NHS of obese women that they think it morally right to point out someone is looking fat. That is rather rude and I would not. So is it similarly rude to say to a working parent they ought to be home as otherwise their children suffer if you genuinely believe it? I don't see why it cannot be said as long as those who believe that are happy that others will say back to them that children could be damaged if women are at home. If they do not like that said then they need not to say the converse to the working parents I suppose so it's all quite fair.

others can make out commenting on childcare is the same as being blatantly racist

Yeah, I do! Lol away.

The reason I see it as equally invidious is that both critics presume to know what is best for their target. And that they consider themselves entitled to rip another person's life choices to shreds, seeking to limit that person's freedoms.

People only do this when they feel quite secure that they're somehow superior to their target. This could be because they're white and believe themselves superior to people of other colours. Or it could be that they are patriarchs and believe themselves superior to women who flout the patriarchal model.

The women who criticise Hoping's choices may not think of themselves as patriarchal mouthpieces. But think about it: What makes teetering so absolutely, 100% sure that she knows better than OP about OP's life and her baby? It comes back to "Are you the Ruler Of Childcare?" Clearly not, so why has she assumed this right, and why have so many?

As Buffy says, it can be fully explained by looking at constructed meanings in our culture. The French people in the 70s, who felt entitled to tell me off for my hippy style, felt culturally supported to demand a certain mode of dress for women. The women who stoned (literally) a single working mother in the 60s, in this village, felt culturally certain that she was an abomination to womanhood. The people persecuting Heather Frost feel culturally entitled to revile mothers who claim benefits - yet, also, that mothers with jobs are in the wrong.

That's the sort of thing that's worth looking at, imo. The constructed 'ideal' for childbearing women restricts them to being kept by a man. Many of Frost's critics actually feel her children should be taken into care (given that this would cost a fortune, and not be better for the DC, it's plain they mean this as a punishment and a warning.) She cannot be 'right' unless she is kept by a man. Neither can OP. How do you feel about this, honestly?

Garlic and buffy you say what I would like to be able to say so much more articulately and eloquently than I can - thank you.
78 I do understand what you are saying and I do think that probably at least one of the people I mentioned in my OP feels so strongly that I am wrong that she believes she has a moral obligation to let me know that. As for the others, I think that for some they are trying to defend their own decisions, generally to sacrifice their careers, by convincing themselves/me that I am wrong. A number of posters have suggested this and I think they are right. And I do think that a few are just being unwittingly and harmlessly insensitive.
As for whether it is right or helpful to impart your views on others because you feel so strongly that you are morally obligated to do so - I don't believe that this ever results in affecting actual change in the victim of your remarks. Telling a smoking pregnant woman she is disgusting won't make her stub out her fag. Telling a hungry meat eater that they are cruel wont make them put down their burger. And telling me that I have made the wrong decision for my child won't make me hand in my notice and dash to nursery to rescue my poor suffering dd. Confrontational approaches to behaviour change have been demonstrated not to work. So why do it?

I do not feel my opinion has 'ripped another persons life choices to shreds' lol ... I have stated I think babies put in full time care aren't getting the best start.

Now if a person decides to put their baby in full time care and are happy with their decision then my opinion will count for nothing.

IF someone reads my opinion and they feel so offended and hurt and hard done by and 'how dare they' etc etc blah blah .. well, they weren't happy with their decision in the first place were they, something is niggling away there already.

If someone else reads my opinion and tells me to fuck off, accuses me of being a troll, says I might as well be a racist hateful bitch ... well ... they are fucked up

Heroic, Buffy! Though I may be able to guess the answer to your closing question

I've noticed that those doing feminist/sociological theorising on this thread have been at pains to understand what Hoping's critics are trying to say, and to understand why they say it. I can't say I'm seeing any traffic in the other direction - teetering, you said you're a feminist (I think), so aren't you interested in even trying to see what it looks like from where I'm sitting?

Hoping - thank you!

I'm off to catch up on Luther and eat king prawns. Violence and exploitative consumerism abound But my prawns say they were ethically fished, so maybe just violence, eh?!

Can prawns be fished?

No I don't see, well yes I do see what's happening ...

I stated my opinion and got slated, I got told to fuck off, I was called a troll .. a few people were really rude

I suppose that's acceptable if you bring in the made up fact that what I'm saying is the same as blatant racism? ..

Facts are in any society/family/group of friends/work colleagues you are going to get people offering advice based on their own experiences ... It happens all the time, the only time something sticks with us is when it strikes a cord