Anyone watching 'The other Boleyn girl'??

[Italiangreyhound]

Seems like a pretty crap time to be a woman (or a girl)!

Anyone know how true it all is??

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Other_Boleyn_Girl_%282008_film%29

This is quite a daft question but why did Elizabeth become queen and not Mary, was it because Mary was Catholic or was it because Catherine and Henry were divorced after Mary was born??

Total history ignoramus me!

Mary did become queen, it's just Elizabeth became queen afterwards too. It's bonkers that they both did - basically, Henry ignored the law and simply insisted they were both his legitimate heirs.

kim - do you mean Anne of Cleves? Cos I don't know, but I always assumed he genuinely did love Catharine at least at the start, and they were married for ages.

I don't know how you'd explore his personality but I can see it might be fun to do. I remember us doing bits about Victoria's personality when we did Kings and Queens when we were 8 or 9 and we all got told about her mourning Albert and so on.

Or, as the lad in History Boys puts it, 'like the wrong end of a camel's turd'.

Sorry, I wasn't trying to be picky, I was honestly wondering which one you meant as there'd be scope to think Henry got bored with Catharine when she was older, it's just not so obvious I guess.

I re-watched this film last night, having read Bring Up the Bodies recently to. The thing that struck me most was how quickly the time flew by in the film (raped one minute, pregnant the next, miscarrying soon after). And also how it underlined just how much women were pawns and chattels to be exchanged and moved for political gain.

Interesting fact: yesterday (1 June) was the date Anne Boleyn was crowned, presumably hence the timing.

(And, by chance, I got to the beheading bit in BUTB on the same day (20ish May) as the event in RL)

Re Henry ignoring the law, sort of - the law really was whatever the rulers said it was.

In the months before Anne died, Charles V was offering to recognise Anne as legitimate queen of England and Elizabeth as a legitimate child of their marriage as long as Mary's legitimacy was restored. Henry refused to accept the offer as by then, he had bought his own publicity - he didn't see why the Holy Roman Emperor was qualified to tell the King of England which of his children were legitimate or not.

But it would have saved Elizabeth an awful lot of trouble if he'd agreed (and it was clearly what he wanted anyway as shown by his eventual settlement) and it's what Anne was also pushing for. Interestingly, as it would have enshrined the idea of Mary (the eldest) inheriting the throne rather than her own daughter Elizabeth. But she obviously didn't think it would be an issue as she was expecting to bear a son which would have made the discussions irrelevant.

I don't think Anne of Cleeves actually was 'too ugly.'
I think that the language barrier meant that she couldn't 'play the game' in the way that Anne Boleyn and Jane Seymour could.

Henry was old and fat with a gammy leg (nice!) and AOC had absolutely no idea about relationships.

I think it was a clash of cultures as much as anything else, but Henry being a vain and conceited man decided that she wasn't attractive enough for him.

families - that's a very cool set of timings!

basil - yes, sorry, you're right. He could also have declared his illegitimate son legitimate, but I don't think he'd realized at that point that he might never have a legitimate son.

I can sort of see why he wouldn't want to give someone else the power to legitimize his children, though - I guess having got rid of the Pope he felt he didn't want to give any suggestion of power to someone else?

Funnily enough I've always thought she looked one of the best looking of his wives cornypedicure.

But apparently it's a very flattering portrait...

Yes, you can see his POV.

Having gone to all the trouble of getting rid of foreign interference in England, he didn't want to give an inch, even though what Charles was proposing was absolutely logical and reasonable and the solution Henry himself went for in the end.

yes her portrait is really pretty.

I think part of the problem was he'd convinced himself he went for lovely, shy, Christian girls who were sexually very inexperienced, but when faced with one he was shocked, and didn't like what his reaction implied about himself.

Wasn't it Anne of Cleves who was know as the Mare of Flanders due to her looking like a horse?

There's a story he called her a 'fat Flanders mare'. I don't know if it's true.

Looking at these pictures en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_VIII_of_England I think Anne comes out the most beautiful by far, but maybe that is judging by today's standards. I think they liked their women 'round' back then!! Utterly sexist comment on the feminist threads! .... sorry!

If memory serves, Mary and Elizabeth were both restored to the succession by act of Parliament (and Henry's will), but without declaring them legitimate.

You're quite right, sorry.
They were just declared his heirs.

Yes, you're right.

He really was the most irresponsible, deadbeat dad, wasn't he?

He only restored them to the succession when he realised he was dying.
I guess he figured 3 heirs of whatever gender
were better than 1 sickly boy? Oh, the irony!
Yesterday was the 60th anniversary of Elizabeth II coronation and interestingly- well interesting to me! - her grandfather was desperate for Edward VIII to abdicate and for nothing to come "between lillibet and the throne"
He thought is eldest son was mentally defective, as did several high ranking courtiers.

Interloper here! Just wanted to say I highly recommend Alison Weir's book "Innocent Traitor" about Lady Jane Grey. I've always been fascinated by her but so few people seem aware she ever existed

oh yes that's a great book - I enjoyed it as well.