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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism for Dummies.

209 replies

Ilovemyself · 20/05/2013 20:45

Ok. Here goes.

Apologies if I have offended anyone with my posts since I started using the site. I certainly didn't mean to.

I am all for equality, be it based on sex, race, sexuality, or whatever subculture you area member of.

I have been surprised at the level of vitriol aimed at me because of my (rather poorly worded )comments.

I understand that in every fight for equality there will be those for who the fight is an ever consuming thing. And there will also be those who have been down trodden for so long they will snap at the slightest thing against them. And that there will be those who feel that because they have been oppressed for so long it is their right to be in a dominant position.

For those that want to tip the balance in the opposite direction, I will always disagree. Equality is what we should aim for in all walks of life. These are those who I referred to when I said taking things too far - for promoting something other than equality.

But for the other groups, should I walk on eggshells for fear of offending them, or should say my piece, apologise if I offend, and carry on.

Or am I completely wrong in viewing feminism as a fight for equality when it is actually a fight for women to be in a dominant position over men.

I hope I get some answers here - I certainly don't want a repeat of the last 24 hours. Thanks all.

OP posts:
sunshine401 · 21/05/2013 15:59

Yes People have to change but it is not all about women.

PromQueenWithin · 21/05/2013 15:59

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PromQueenWithin · 21/05/2013 16:00

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WilsonFrickett · 21/05/2013 16:00

No you are right sunshine - it's not all about women, men have to change too.

Prom - Jesus wept Sad

sunshine401 · 21/05/2013 16:01

Yes but that happens to men,children and animals to. Are women more important ?? Of course not.
We should fight to stop violence to all.

Blistory · 21/05/2013 16:06

Ilovemyself,

Ok, so this isn?t going as well as was hoped but never mind, you?re still here and claiming to be interested so I?ll try and help out.

I think we need to go back to the basics before we get into feminist theory because if you don?t know why feminism still exists today, there?s no point in getting into the nuances of it all.

I?m pissed off and angry but you have to understand that the frustration isn?t aimed at you as an individual man but at a society that is largely controlled by men to the detriment of women and that the injustice is worldwide. All the little injustices that feminists are accused of getting their knickers in a twist over all accumulate and I get worked up about them because they are indicative of the view that women are viewed and consequently treated.

Think about it, I don?t know how life is for someone in a wheelchair so I might think well, you?ve got the legal rights to accessible facilities, you have a chair, it?s tough but not really all that much of an issue. I don?t have to consider that someone in a wheelchair can?t just get up and go out for the day. I do it without any planning so I might just assume that they do as well. I don?t really think that opening a door might be an issue, I don?t really think that they might be invisible and ignored. It?s not really a problem to me that someone in a wheelchair might find it really difficult to find a life partner. I don?t need to consider that in my day to day life. I have however had to convert my workplace to ensure that it complies with the DDA and at expense to me and yet I?ve never had someone with a wheelchair come into my premises. Maybe if I stopped to think about it, the reason why they haven?t come in is because we were previously unaccessible. It would be easy for me to think that the DDA is in force, they have protective legislation in place so what?s the problem.

Now, I?m not comparing wheelchair use to being a woman but it?s something that most people can easily comprehend. And when you understand how tough life can be for someone in a wheelchair, you don?t think ?but what about me ? I don?t have a fancy automatic door?, a normal human being would just be pleased that life is being made just that little bit easier for them. Feminism acknowledges the numerous ways in which women, as a biological group, are disadvantaged and is then confronted with men and other women who react badly to having those facts pointed out to them. The tired old argument is that the equality legislation is in place so what more do we want ?

What feminism wants is to do away itself. It want to be unnecessary but it hasn?t yet achieved that.

Feminism recognises that life can be awful for some men, that it can be even worse for some men than for some women but generally, it focuses on the issues of women. If we could address those issues, then the lives of many men would improve. It?s not about improving the lives of women at the expense of men, it?s about ensuring that from birth, women have the same rights and opportunities that men have. In the UK some of those issues may seem trite, in other parts of the world , it?s about the right to life.

As a man, and particularly in the UK, and especially so if you?re a white, educated, middle class man, you start life with many unseen advantages. You are likely to be told from birth that you?re strong, that you?re brave, that your little sister is somehow more fragile and needs looked after. You?re encouraged to be a protector of the weak and the innocent ? that would be the girls and women in your life. You?re encouraged to be physical, you?re allowed to get dirty and climb trees, you can be loud and bolshy and that?s ok. Now think of the different message that society, not necessarily you, sends to girls.

So you grow up. You?re encouraged to take science classes. The older you get, the more likely your teachers are to be male. You?ll have visited the doctors and chances are that the doctor is male and the nurse female. You might be watching the news and may not even have noticed that the Prime Minister is male, more importantly, most of his Cabinet is male. It may not have occurred to you that most business leaders interviewed are male. Maybe if you?re younger you might not even have noticed that the lead in cartoons is invariably male. Obviously there are exceptions but do you see where I?m going with this ? as a young boy turning into a young man, you have plenty of male examples. You?re seeing men in important roles everywhere.

Let?s turn to your home life. Growing up, most boys will have seen their mothers responsible for the majority of childcare and household tasks while Daddy works at the very important office which affords the family the nice things in life. So what does Mummy do ? well, she cleans the toilet or does the school run. Maybe your sisters are taught how to iron or how to cook while you boys do the physical tasks.

And you?re not even a man yet. Now think about what a teenage girl has gone through, where are her positive examples ? What is she expected to think her role in society is ? Now bear in mind that we?re talking about the basic stuff, not the sexual pressures, the fear of rape, the constant verbal and low level physical abuse that women face once they enter puberty. And again, so far we?re talking about nice, middle class UK.

If you?re with me so far and having a little bit of a lightbulb moment, let me know and I?ll get to the real bones of it.

PromQueenWithin · 21/05/2013 16:07

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sunshine401 · 21/05/2013 16:10

prejudiced against what?

PromQueenWithin · 21/05/2013 16:11

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sunshine401 · 21/05/2013 16:19

Well I am a women have been for the last 43 years. Grin
I understand we need an equal society. However at the moment the women declaring themselves as Feminists are making it to be all about women. It is not, well I do not think it is.
Then we have the arguments on here which are awful, women slagging each other off. "Your not a feminists blah blah" The whole abortion thread the other day was equally awful. Stating you "couldn't be a Feminist if you thought it was wrong to let a mother kill a full term baby. Angry
Rights are rights but not for a certain group of people everyone should have the same rights.
I have rights
My children have rights
My husband has rights
My pets have rights

JoTheHot · 21/05/2013 16:23

It's just not helpful to keep conflating feminism with radical feminism. Feminism is about promoting women's interests, end of. Radical feminists are fixated on the nebulous malevolent patriarchy. The vast vast majority of people who identify themselves as feminists are not .

I realise a vociferous hard-core of radical feminists dominates this corner of MN, and I'm fine with that. We all find comfort in setting the world to rights within a group of like-minded people, but please stop re-defining feminism.

The comment that people asking for evidence are 'prattling' says so much. Who needs evidence when you already know you're right.

WilsonFrickett · 21/05/2013 16:26

But sunshine as a woman in the UK you may have more or less the same rights as a man, but you have less privilege. And in general, in the world, men have more rights than women. Everyone does not have the same rights. So how can it not be about women?

sunshine401 · 21/05/2013 16:33

No everyone does not have the same rights, but everyone should have the same rights.

Women and Men cannot by law be physically hurt. If you are you can get whoever caused the hurt upon charges.
Children however can by law be physically hurt (although in limitation smacked without leaving a mark. Therefore Men and Women have more rights over the children we are meant to care for.
Why? because we live in an unequal society. The fight for equal rights should be about all equal rights not just equal rights for one group of people.
I as a women fully believe in my rights and all women's rights but it does not just end there. I believe in children,men,homosexual,animal and any other kind of right you can think of. Equality.

PromQueenWithin · 21/05/2013 16:38

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grimbletart · 21/05/2013 16:42

sunshine: I think feminists are only too aware of the fact that all sorts of people have fewer rights than others. To be born having fewer rights makes us more conscious of others in under privileged positions.

But this is the feminism thread. It does what it says on the tin.

grimbletart · 21/05/2013 16:43

In fact Blistory at 16.06 has just given an outstanding example of feminists being aware of the rights (or lack of) of other groups......

Blistory · 21/05/2013 16:44

Part 2 for Ilovemyself

So we?re entering the teen years.

You?re probably still not really interested in having a girlfriend but might be getting curious about female bodies. That?s ok , there?s plenty around to educate you. You might even hide behind the bike sheds and have a giggle with your mates at the Page 3 you?ve found or the dirty magazine that was hidden under your brother?s mattress. Perhaps you find yourself looking at girls with a bit more interest. Maybe the billboard ads, or magazine ads with provocative poses are catching your eye. Maybe there?s talk about the girl who puts it about a bit. Maybe you?ve seen a dirty video or two but you?re primarily still interested in your mates and what?s happening to your own body. There?s maybe the odd arousal in public that you?re embarrassed by but generally all that is still to come.

Let?s turn to your sister. She?s hitting puberty and has started to develop. She can?t hide the fact that she?s growing breasts and has started to wear a bra. As she walks through the playground, the boys behind the bikeshed are giggling and looking at her chest. She feels a bit flustered, a bit intimidated. She notices that older boys and men are looking at her chest, sometimes it?s a little bit scary. She doesn?t understand why she feels like this as she?s surrounded by posters and adverts everywhere where women are showing off their breasts with no concerns at all. But then, maybe she doesn?t look like them. If that?s the normal portrayal of women, there must be something wrong with her as she doesn?t look like that. So maybe she?ll try some makeup. Maybe she can hide behind that and make herself look like the women in the ads. Maybe she?ll diet so she can be skinny. Then to her horror she notices that no one else has hair on their legs. Something else she has to do. But conversely the more she does all that, the more attention she seems to attract.

In trying to fit in and look like a normal woman, men have suddenly taken it as a sign that she?s mature and sexually available. She starts getting wolf whistles as she walks home, someone grabbed her bum on the bus. She?s too intimidated to do or say anything so she keeps quiet but she?s started to internalise the message that men are entitled to look at her, that they consider themselves to have access to her whether she wants it or not.

Now combine the teenage years with the messages that you both received in childhood and you?ll hopefully start to see where things are falling apart. By your teen years, you?ll already have been told so frequently and in small ways that women are somehow ?other? that they are ?less? . You will have internalised that and won?t be aware of it ? neither are young women. Boys are told that it?s a negative to be feminine as if it?s one of the worst insults that can be handed to a man.

Feminism does not agree on why this occurs ? maybe the system has been designed that way, maybe it?s to do with historic economic necessity, maybe it?s caused in part by male dominated religions. There?s plenty of theory out there but we?re sticking to the everyday stuff that happens just to give you an understanding of why women are pissed off.

I could go on for hours through the life of an average woman and explain about career expectations, discrimination in the workplace, being, on the whole, expected to be responsible for the home and the childcare, the expectations that I will earn less, the fact that I stand a 1 in 4 chance of being raped. The fact that I will be judged for looking inadequate if I don?t wear make up, dye my hair ? I will never be allowed simply to look like me. And remember that women are buying into this as well.

Do you want part 3 ?

JoTheHot · 21/05/2013 17:00

You do not need twin studies. There is already tons of irrefutable evidence that gender is an interaction between nature and nurture. The most concise argument comes from a phylogenetic analysis of mammals.

I have no convictions about you're convictions. I just take you at your word.

YoniTime · 21/05/2013 17:05

Did you change your name OP?

PromQueenWithin · 21/05/2013 17:11

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Message withdrawn at poster's request.

JoTheHot · 21/05/2013 17:24

That mammals are not influenced by culture is exactly the point of a phylogenetic comparison. Mammals show pronounced sex differences without culture, so these differences are genetic. Humans evolved with the same darwinian pressures as other mammals and so parsimony suggests gender differences are genetic in humans as well. Otherwise you're arguing that all the sex differences we see in our relatives have for some reason disappeared in our lineage, despite the fact that we are still exposed to the same selection pressures to maintain them.

From a theoretical stand-point it's pretty much impossible to construct a scenario in which anisogamy does not produce genetically-based behavioural differences between the sexes.

What was the word I took out of context?

sunshine401 · 21/05/2013 17:25

Not wanting to derail so I bid you farewell dearest feminist's of mn :)

vesuvia · 21/05/2013 17:38

JoTheHot wrote - "Radical feminists are fixated on the nebulous malevolent patriarchy. The vast vast majority of people who identify themselves as feminists are not ."

The concept of patriarchy is not restricted to radical feminism, or even to feminism.

Many, probably most, branches of feminism recognise patriarchy and patriarchal values as the problem. The difference between the different branches of feminism is in how patriarchal values should be opposed. Radical feminism seeks to remove patriarchy. Other branches of feminism seek to modify patriarchy.

PromQueenWithin · 21/05/2013 17:42

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Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Blistory · 21/05/2013 17:50

It's a bit unfair to come on a thread entitled 'Feminism for Dummies' and have the posts above. If you're going to do the whole 'burn the radfems at the stake' thing, could you start your own thread please ?

Regardless of the way in which the thread started, the intent was that it was a beginning point for the exploration of feminism as a concept by someone who doesn't understand it and genuinely doesn't see why it's needed.

Swipe left for the next trending thread