Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Original poster

The invisible men project

999 replies

ArmyOfPenguins · 06/05/2013 22:45

I think it's important that the buyers' choices in prostitution are highlighted and shared. This project was linked to on FB. Thoughts? I think it's a great idea.

the-invisible-men.tumblr.com/

OP posts:
stylenadlife · 08/08/2013 01:17

So if you're so clued up, how do you enforce such a law? What if the prostitute doesn't want her punters convicted?

FloraFox · 08/08/2013 01:20

This thread is not here to educate you on criminal enforcement.

runningforthebusinheels · 08/08/2013 01:21

It's the cps who decides if a prosecution takes place in sex abuse cases. Not the victim/prostitute.

.

stylenadlife · 08/08/2013 01:23

And what happens if both punter and prostitute deny sex for payment took place?

They both go free and yet more police and court time/money is wasted, that's what/

FloraFox · 08/08/2013 01:25

Again, you don't know what you are talking about.

runningforthebusinheels · 08/08/2013 01:27

Well, you could say that for any crime - but with the swedish stats quoted upthread, this is unlikely to be the case.

I note you haven't answered the questions as to the field reports.

runningforthebusinheels · 08/08/2013 01:28

or, whether you are a punter?

stylenadlife · 08/08/2013 01:31

"Evidence to prove a crime is nearly unattainable. Workers do not consider themselves to be victims and are almost always unwilling to testify against their clients."

www.hivlawcommission.org/resources/report/FinalReport-Risks,Rights&Health-EN.pdf

Page 38

stylenadlife · 08/08/2013 01:32

The question should be if commercial sex is between 2 consenting adults, why is it a "crime" in the first place?

FloraFox · 08/08/2013 01:39

Your study was already debunked.

Please read the thread and other theads on here on the more general question.

runningforthebusinheels · 08/08/2013 01:39

But what we want to know, is what you think of the invisible men quotes? And are you a punter?

Really, that hiv commissioned report has already been shown to be inaccuarate - why are you still carping on about that? Hmm

Whenthered showed stats (and their sources) that completely discredit it.

stylenadlife · 08/08/2013 01:42

Like I posted I don't know if the invisible men quotes are real quotes written by punters, or just dishonest rubbish made up by someone who wants to make punters look bad.

runningforthebusinheels · 08/08/2013 01:46

Like I said, they're not made up. They're there on PN for anyone to see. I've seen ones on PN that haven't even made it onto the invisible men project, and equally show despicable attitudes towards women and prostitutes.

What do you think of them?

Bunnylion · 08/08/2013 01:47

[Ignoring suspected troll]

Here's an experience that I have of talking to a punter.

I used to work with a guy who would go to Thailand up to 5 times a year as a sex tourist. I got into a few discussions with him about it. He told me how he was very nice to the "girls" and would buy one for the night every night he was there. She'd sleep in his hotel and they'd have breakfast together and say their goodbyes soon after. He told me about how they'd later send flowers to his hotel for him and try and see him again, how a few of his mates had married some of the Thai "girls", and how it was all a pretty sweet and innocent good time for all.

I mentioned that what he was doing was exploiting very very financially poor women and his response was outrage and said that I didn't get it, the "girls" were exploiting him and his wallet!

A bit of background on him - this guy lives with his mum (he's late 30s) and his 3 cats and has a serious halitosis issue.

Contrast his description of the Thailand trips to me with how I'd regularly overhear him talking to male colleagues in the office. He described pretty awful, invisible men type situations but with a chuckle and bravado - bruised, drugged women passing out while he was "doing her", pimps pushing them around outside his hotel in the morning, how difficult it is to really tell a Thais age when you know they've been round the block a few times - etc etc.

It surprised me just how easily he could switch the spin of his stories to protect his own feelings of being judged by me, and equally to (I presume) get man-points with the boys in the office. Although the other men would laugh at him and his sad little Thailand trips behind his back.

His judgement was so deeply distorted on what he was actually doing, but not sure if it was by conscious choice or just his own delusional stupidity.

[i started off by ignoring suspected troll but after reading the last post the ideas of delusional punters is quite apt]

GoshAnneGorilla · 08/08/2013 01:47

Bloody hell - that HIV paper even cites Laura Augustin she of the "Trafficked women are liberated citizens of the world" quote.

Style - Answer this question:
Why are you so fixated on dismissing the negative aspects of prostitution?

GoshAnneGorilla · 08/08/2013 02:11

Look at these "liberated" women! And in a state where prostitution is legal, so according to some, this means nothing bad ever happens:

www.smh.com.au/nsw/jail-for-brothel-keeper-who-enslaved-women-20130705-2phgf.html

GoshAnneGorilla · 08/08/2013 02:13

Also illegal brothels outnumber legal brothels 4 to 1: www.abc.net.au/news/2009-05-18/nsw-papers-urged-to-cut-brothel-ads/1686430

Sounds great!

WhentheRed · 08/08/2013 02:54

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Beachcomber · 08/08/2013 08:07

bunnylion that is utterly disgusting.

i think your example of misogynist adapts version depending on audience highlights why the invisible men project is so valid - because it is quoting what men say to each other .

having said that i remember reading a study which interviewed men who pay for sex (it may have been the eaves project one) where the women who had to gather the men's testimonies ended up actually feeling quite disturbed by the experience.

when men are telling us that they hate women it is disturbing for women to hear.

scallopsrgreat · 08/08/2013 08:45

"when men are telling us that they hate women" we should listen too.

Bunnylion · 08/08/2013 10:51

I found it to be an interesting insight in to how he viewed the situation and his own actions - as with the invisible man project.

The buyer is so often seen as a large and faceless consumer group, passively soaking up whatever is on offer and then shuffling off into the night - it's important to remember that he is a feeling, thinking individual, who's every decision is premeditated and controlled by himself.

I'm enjoying Rightwing Women, "MacKinnon wrote in the one sentence that every woman should risk her life to understand: man fucks woman, subject, verb, object"

grimbletart · 08/08/2013 12:14

Like I posted I don't know if the invisible men quotes are real quotes written by punters, or just dishonest rubbish made up by someone who wants to make punters look bad.

It's not necessary to "make" punters look bad. Punters do a perfect job themselves.

sghueks · 08/08/2013 13:12

WhentheRed. Yes, one question with a second component which I wanted clarifying. I honestly don't see the need to construct issues where there are none about this but if that's the way forward could you at least make your mind up?

my original question to you had two components:

You have since responded to my first question.

you could not respond to the second question

So is it one question with two components or two questions each with one component or is it all simply a request? (In my second request)

More importantly, does it matter.

knight in shining armour syndrome in prostitution? Buying sex as rescue work?

No, that's not it. Many escorts talk about punters who become interested in them for any reason. Some think they have become friends, some want to be the girl's favourite or 'most respected' punter, others literally fall in love etc. The end result is that the punter will appoint himself as her protector, her "knight in shining armour". My understanding is that most escorts will run a mile from these men but my point was that often the punter most definitely is interested in more then just sex. But there are exceptions and some do become couples in permanent relationships.

sghueks · 08/08/2013 13:22

FloraFox Not only is the so-called "knight in shining armour" delusional, it is a further objectification of a woman to serve a male fantasy of himself. It is clear even from the name of this so-called syndrome that the focus is on the man as hero rather than any real regard for the woman. The benefit he gets from it is a promotion of his ego, he has "saved" this one woman. If he was actually interested in helping women, that would not be traded for sex but would be called "being a decent human being" or "abolitionist".

100% spot on.

I do think the feminist view is extreme but; if men took more notice of it with an open mind, and then took a look back at themselves, they might learn a thing or two.

sghueks · 08/08/2013 13:49

Bunnylion Hope you don't mind me replying.

His judgement was so deeply distorted on what he was actually doing, but not sure if it was by conscious choice or just his own delusional stupidity.

I'm trying to understand the complexities of the feminist view on all this, and how that fits with other areas in human life. Here I'm looking at something I agree with in your words above and something I have seen in myself on the whole subject of prostitution. From a male point of view I think many men need a wake up call (it's obvious to me that I did), some won't ever listen or change but I'd like to believe there are many that would. And to answer your latter point, I can't speak for the person you were speaking with but I do think with many men it is "delusional" rather than "conscious choice". To include another another point, I don't think the law deterrent, Swedish or otherwise, would be as effective as breaking that delusion could be.