The invisible men project

[ArmyOfPenguins]

I think it's important that the buyers' choices in prostitution are highlighted and shared. This project was linked to on FB. Thoughts? I think it's a great idea.

the-invisible-men.tumblr.com/

SG what was your wake up call?

Bunnylion This The whole thread, by reading, considering and 'listening'.

I'm still a bit lost by the manner in which the feminist view seems to insist on a blanket view and I'm assuming that it'ss to provide at least some brevity in a complex issue which clearly doesn't require further complexities to 'muddy the water'. By this I mean grey areas, places where things overlap and being so finite about certain considerations, such as rape. So if I accept that and just 'listen' for a minute rather than picking holes in bits that stray from the point I then think "these men are Neanderthal fuckwits" and I don't want to be one of those.

SG good for you.

Bear in mine that some things that don't make complete sense to you right now may well still be correct, you might just not fully understand them yet. Keep an open mind.

SG,, were you posting under the name "fairskin" on that thread ?

Bunnylion I don't think I'll ever be in line fully with the feminist view but all men had a mother, maybe female siblings or children. Who would want them to be subjected to anything like this?

AnyFucker The thread I linked to is this thread and no I haven't.

SG I don't think anyone subscribes to every "feminist view" - it's not a blanket catch-all theory, but many different ideas, voices and perspectives that have the same goal in mind - equality between the sexes.

Sorry, SG, my mistake. I got sidetracked elsewhere.

that is what the swedish model does - it has a public information policy that is designed to deconstruct the delusional side and tell men that what they are doing is criminal. that it is abuse, exploitation, rape, violence against women and, very importantly, that the institution of prostitution is a barrier to equality and the liberation of women.

the swedish model is a holistic approach and a long term approach, carefully thought out to address culture and attitudes. the point is not to have high numbers of convictions - the point is to have low numbers because men will stop seeing the choice to buy sex as a valid normal thing to do.

just to be clear i see the deluded side of these men as a manifestation of entitlement, lack of empathy due to objectification of women and a huge amount of sexism.

i DO NOT at all mean to imply that the men are not responsible for their choices. i use 'deluded' in a pejorative way but not at all as an excuse for what they do to women.

WhentheRed "The very fact that the punters call it "knight in shining armour syndrome" Sorry that's not accurate, my fault I wasn't clear in my post. I began with "Many escorts talk about punters who become interested in them for any reason".

It is the escort who will label a certain type of punter as a, "knight in shining armour" because he thinks he has the favouritism previously mentioned. Most punters I've read about don't like the term and will deny it. I have to add that some men do seem fit with your description of type but others maybe not and are just emotionally deluded. Also the behaviour of the women is not entirely without blame in this, many are clearly very good actors and the reaction of men is not surprising. If men can fall for nurses due to the care they give then if sex is involved it's an amplification of that. But this is moving towards those grey areas, overlapping with ordinary life so I'll shut up on this subj. :)

"What's your solution?" If Beachcomber is correct then I'm surprised and a bit saddened that Sweden still has such a large sex industry, it isn't working to the extent I imagined.

I can't answer about what my solution would be without a lot of thought on it, I'm not even sure there really is one but I do believe it's worth attempting. I think I would start with a lot of what's been said in this thread. Men's choices, attitudes towards women and deconstruct the delusional side and tell men that what they are doing is criminal wrong that it is abuse, exploitation. I've removed points which for me, would either be going go too far or be ineffective. Most punters won't give a monkeys about it being criminal and if you mention rape they'll just shut down and argue that the idea is nuts. Most if not all men, don't leave school as young lads with any of these ideas, you have to think about what goes wrong in later life. Men need to be re-educated, made to understand and that would require an open mind to begin with.

Interestingly, speaking for myself, reading reports on punter-nut results in an entirely different reaction than reading the same thing on the Invisible Man project website. That project is a good idea and should form part of any rehab for punters, I think.

But it's not just the sex industry, when the Internet is full of social media where fairly ordinary young girls are actively looking for guys to fuck and where "must be hung and fit" is a common phrase then men are going to struggle to see women in a light which the feminist would find agreeable. If a guy is "not hung", often prostitution for many men is just a "transaction away" from getting that girl, or one just like her. I think to eradicate prostitution you must first fix society and everyone's attitudes towards sex, I can't see that happening but I can see it improving because of my own experience here.

Beachcomber, I'm coming very late to this thread, but just wanted to add my voice to the lightbulb chorus. The implications of the concept of consent are something I've been tussling with for a while, especially as my children have become teens. Considering the notion of consent as we commonly understand it was confronting when applied to their lives rather than mine, where it's subsumed in all of the internalised compromises I've made in order to survive.

So thank you, it's not the first time you've posted something that led to revelation for me. The MN feminist boards have been an incredible place to spend time, through the really shit times as well as the good, and the average. Posters here have challenged and stretched my thinking, Dittany fairly blew a hole through it, and you and others have been consistently thought provoking, intelligent and generous.

In amongst all the other stuff that gets thrown at you, I just wanted you to know what a gift it's been to read the discussions that happen here. Thank you.

Thank you LoremIpsum. Really thank you very much. And to all the other women on this thread who have got what I'm saying. It means a lot to me to share all this with other women.

We have been through some ups and downs on the FWR section. I took a break for a while from it and I'm really glad to come back and have these sorts of exchanges. I miss dittany on here - she brought so much and lit a whole bunch of lightbulbs for me.

I'm so up for a Mackinnon/Dworkin theory thread on consent and will try to start the thread this evening.

sghueks - I disagree with you that criminalising the buying of sex is ineffective or going too far. Indeed, my analysis is that it is vital.

In civilised society laws protect the vulnerable and are tools for redressing imbalances of power and status. Laws are also powerful means of communicating what is acceptable behaviour and what makes one an outcast who needs to take a good look at themselves. Laws provide the foundation for solidarity, humanity, moral intelligence and a just society. They will not be able to deliver comprehensive results on their own; of course they must be accompanied by a cultural and attitudinal shift - laws are part of that shift though.

Telling men who buy sex that what they are doing is wrong, without putting in place sanctions that really show that society means business, is just making noise without actually taking real action. A very useful tool is that of the sex offenders register. Society telling you that what you are doing is a sex offence and that you are a sex offender is a very powerful community tool both as a means of communicating the seriousness and unacceptability of an action, but also as a deterrent. If men thought that buying sex could find them on a register that their families, friends and future employers could access, they would soon engage their brains and drop much of their delusional bullshit.

If the Swedish model does not work (and it is too soon to judge - it is a long term plan of action that may take several generations to bring about real change), then we women are fucked. It will mean that there really is little hope for us to be liberated from our status us the sex class and to achieve full human status. We shall see - it will be for men to decide, it is for them to locate their humanity and implement it.

I'm in two minds about the future of all this, on one hand naturally optimistic, on the other cynical because the more I move through life, the more I question if men as a class will ever let go of their god complex and the desire to dominate that they hold so dear - they have shown themselves to really hate us women for being the ones who carry and birth children. We can never change that biological fact so I do sometimes question if we can really change a society dominated by men who resent and want to have control of that biological fact.

Beachcomber - I agree. Thank you for what you've posted. It has given me some serious thinking material. I haven't posted on this thread before because, frankly, I have no stomach for wrestling with some of the types these threads attract. But there are probably lots like me out there lurking and learning

I agree that criminalising the purchase of sex is important. The Swedish report linked by running above indicates that the Swedish government believes prostitution is less common in Sweden than it would have been without the legislation. I think it's an important part of removing the punters' delusions to clearly state that their behaviour is criminal and to enforce that with effective policing and prosecution. I also agree with Beach that this will be a generational change which will have more impact.

The articles linked by Gosh above identify the proliferation of trafficking and illegal brothels even where brothels are legal and this article below about Germany indicate increased trafficking but not illegal brothels as there seems to be no regulation in Germany to speak of and therefore presumably no need for illegal brothels.

www.spiegel.de/international/germany/human-trafficking-persists-despite-legality-of-prostitution-in-germany-a-902533.html

Legalising prostitution would lead to an increase in the demand from punters as it would encourage their delusions that their behaviour is acceptable and normal. Men who do not currently buy women for sex would be encouraged to do so. An aunt of mine who is a recovering alcoholic told me once that she wished she had lived during prohibition as she, as a law abiding person, would not have become a drinker. Another family member left the UK many years ago to live in a country where betting is largely illegal because he was struggling with a gambling problem. The point of those examples is that most people generally want to and will be law-abiding, at least most of the time. If buying women for prostitution is criminalised but women are not, it is a clear message to punters that they are exploitative criminals.

The other interesting thing about Gosh's article about illegal brothels in Australia is that it helps debunk this myth that you could legalise and regulate brothels. The ask.fm account posted on another thread was vile but one point that came up was the push by punters for discounts and their various justifications that discounts are available in other businesses. There was a post by a former prostitute on this thread (I think) saying this is an issue that is pushed by the types of punters who use the p site. It's also clear from the de speigel article that prices are dropping in Germany following legalisation. Any regulated industry has a higher cost base than an unregulated one due to the cost of compliance with regulations. I believe that attempts to legalise but regulate brothels will lead to an increase in illegal brothels because on the one hand, the punter's choice to purchase a woman for sex will be legitimised by law and therefore demand will increase but many if them will want to find the lowest possible price / ability to get more for his money. This will put pressure on pimps to increase the supply of women to meet the dual pressures of increased demand and demand for lower prices which they can only do by increasing the supply of women and reducing their cost base (payments to women, cost of / avoiding regulation). This would be a very bad outcome for women in prostitution.

sghueks - I disagree with you that criminalising the buying of sex is ineffective or going too far.

I'm obviously not presenting my points correctly enough. What I am saying is this: deconstruct the delusional side and tell men that what they are doing is wrong that it is abuse and exploitation.

I underlined "wrong" because I was trying to suggest that when talking to punters or addressing them about their activities through any means, to not go on about it being criminal but to make the points about it being wrong, abuse and exploitation. I wasn't suggesting that any country should change its laws one way or the other, whether that be Sweden, the UK or elsewhere. My apologies for not being clear.

so don't you think that criminalising the act of buying sex in the uk would send out the message that it is wrong?

i think we need to be clear about what society will accept and not accept for its citizens.

I don't mean to put words in SG's mouth but I wonder if he doesn't mean that just telling them it's criminal won't do much if they haven't internalised how harmful and wrong it is. A bit like everyone knows weed is illegal but most people think it's harmless and don't look askance at someone skinning up - on the other hand there are very few who take heroin use lightly. Apols if I am picking you up wrong SG.

Probably emphasising the criminal aspect alone won't be as effective as using a two part approach.

Like you SinisterSal, I don't wish to speak for anybody, but I think you are probably right with what sghueks may have intended to say.

I just wish to emphasise that criminalising the buying of sex is basic. Without that we have nothing. It is the minimum.

Yes SinisterSal you have understood me perfectly, thank you.

Beachcomber, I think the message that it is wrong is already out there.

Criminalising the purchase of sex in the UK will make a difference, but to what extent I do not know and neither do you. I do know that with some men you will find that telling them not to do something purely on the basis of rule of law will result in the exact opposite, they'll go ahead and do it for devilment. But I strongly believe a very large percentage of "punters" will either ignore it or find ways around it.

Note: Any money paid to the adult escorts listed on this website is for their time and companionship only. Whatever else that may occur if and when contact is made is the choice of consenting adults.

This very subject came up many times on UK punting boards when the law (Sexual Offences Act 2003 and Policing and Crime Act 2009) I think, was amended to remove the need for "persistence" in kerb crawling, make it a criminal offence to pay to have sex with someone who is "controlled for another person's gain" and also introduced more "naming and shaming" of punters. In polls on those boards many men said it would not stop them but they would be more careful. In addition, if you consider that it is already illegal to pay a 16 or 17 year old for sex (statutory rape) and yet many men do. Also the UK's red light areas are still very active despite the police issuing statistics that purport otherwise.

What I do know is that no one has a definitive answer or solution. My overwhelming feeling is that encouraging men to view things differently is a better way forward, cure the disease from within rather than rage war on the symptoms, but it is just my view based on my current understanding and experience, the latter particularly here.

Something I read earlier in this thread has been on my mind for a day or two.

Catlike Wed 08-May-13 07:19:50

There is no such thing as a male escort for women.

Women in this country DO NOT pay for sex unless it's as a couple.

Sorry but that is nonsense.

If you search adultwork.com for Escort, Male, Straight, across the UK you will find 9308 profiles. Of those many are on webcam etc but many of the male escorts do have "Escort" feedback from women (not couples) who have indeed paid to have sex with them.

For example, big-johnny is a straight male escort age 29, charges £120 per hour and has this feedback (just included the relevant bits):

milf mrs robinson (833) Seeking Services
Had such a very sexy time...........................

Shana69 (3) Seeking Services
Nice time with a nice guy x

thai-suzy (126) Seeking Services
really nice guy..................

All three of those ladies are listed as "Seeking Services" so are not listed as escorts themselves, although they may have been previously listed as such.

Also, on a northern based forum called thelbb.co.uk I found the following members:

Name: Stitch Female Punter
Posts: 1414 (1.695 per day)
Position: Level 3 User
Date Registered: April 29, 2011, 11:53:17
Last Active: Today at 12:10:40

Name: Rach - Female Punter
Posts: 1431 (0.562 per day)
Position: Level 3 User
Date Registered: August 21, 2006, 20:18:56
Last Active: Yesterday at 23:35:22
Gender: Female

Both of these woman were born women and are active "punters" who pay other women for sex so I would argue, based on clear evidence, that there are "male escorts for women" and indeed Women in this country DO pay for sex. I have seen other women punters on a Bristol based forum and also on thewysg (west yorkshire sex guide).

I am not diminishing the undesirable attitude or behaviour of male punters here, I am simply saying it's certainly not male exclusive and punting certainly IS a cross gender activity, as is escorting.

FFS! 2 female punters does not an ungendered activity make. This is exactly the same derailing tactic that gets used every time a woman dares to talk about domestic violence.