sexual advances - the big question

[BramshawHill]

BBC the big question is currently discussing whether sexual advances should be accepted as a part of life.

The first speaker has said it weakens men and women if women complain about it every time, and that it IS a part of life.

Anyone else watching? Thoughts?

First time posting, hello btw!

Poor old larry. You just don't get it, do you? Could it be because you haven't had the nice familiar feeling of centuries of oppression coming down on you every time you get a nice envelop coming through the post addressing you as an accessory to someone else? Some nice short pithy thing annihilating your intellect, your contribution to society, your position in the family, in a few short words put you in your place and remind you how fucking lucky you are to belong to somebody?

Like PromQueen and others, I am monstrously offended to be addressed as Mrs DHname.

Curry,

So when is a sexual advance acceptable in your opinion? And "when it is wanted" is a complete cop out. There is no point in discussing that. What I find hard to accept is that, in two parallel universes, two intimate discussions are happening between a man and a woman. In universe one, the woman is desperate for the man to take it further and when he kisses her, she responds and they end up years later happily married with 2.2 children. In universe 2, the woman is having an identical conversation but, in her mind, she wants just that, a conversation. The man tries an identical kiss to that in universe one but, this time, he is reported to the police for assault and ends up in jail.

Is that really what you want?

I can totally get that Larry, or anyone, might not know that it is offensive to address say, PromQueen, as Mrs DH Name. But the horrible arrogance, and, frankly, stupidity, comes in when he just refuses to believe it, when told. Clearly. Repeatedly.

Promqueen,

I just don't think that the permission asking is wanted. Most women would find it unnatural and a turn off.

If it really is the case that most women want it, then you are right, it would be the solution. But if it is a tiny minority and the rest would feel it ridiculous, would you still advocate for it?

I don't think that is a realistic definition and not one that really flies.

Well, that's really unfortunate for you - Larry - since that is a legal definition, taken from a uk.gov website. So whether it flies for you personally, or not, is not really relevant.

No man that I have entered into a relationship with has ever asked 'may I kiss you?'. He has, however, managed to ascertain my interest in him without resorting to sexual assault. Because I am clearly enthusiastically engaging with them.

I would hope you can say the same about your relationships, Larry.

The men who act like Rennard know their behaviour is unwanted. But htey do it anyway, because they have have the power, and because they know or suspect that the woman won't report it.

"Well, that's really unfortunate for you - Larry - since that is a legal definition, taken from a uk.gov website. So whether it flies for you personally, or not, is not really relevant."

"We were chatting in a bar, officer, and he tried to kiss me. I pulled away and he immediately desisted and apologised. I'd like him arrested please and charged with sexual assault."

Bonne chance.

"Shall we do a poll, sampling frame "most women"? We'll ask them if they prefer:

a) a gentleman you aren't in a relationship with to ask "may I kiss you" and waiting for your response before doing so
b) a gentleman you aren't in a relationship with to misread signals and kiss you without permission"

I would actually really like to see that poll done.

So Larry, with your sarcastic "bonne chance", are you celebrating the gulf between legal and societal tolerances of sexual assault?

Curry,

Nope, I am disputing the reality in UK law which, remember, is not statute law but case law.

Larry, take it from me - if you try to kiss a woman in a bar, you will know whether she wants to or not way before you've committed sexual assault.

If she turns her face away, she's not interested. If you then back off, you have not committed any sort of assault. It's spectacularly simple.

Or if the man kisses the woman, then realising the advance was unwanted, apologised profusely and made note not to make that mistake again.

Not that unwanted sexual assault advances routinely end up in jail of course. More likely the woman would be told not to take it so seriously or learn to take a joke or she should be flattered or some other minimising excuse.

I can't say I'm offended when people who couldn't be expected to know I'm not Mrs DH's Name (but I do have some fun with it on occasion) becuase I recognie that it is still the cultural norm for women to change their names.

I AM monstrously offended when people who know I use my own name insist on addressing things to me as Mrs DH Name, because they are foisting their own anti-feminist ideas on to me and ought to know better by now thinking that I am just wrong.

Re the kissing- I agree that asking or not asking, men should learn to take a hint. If in doubt, ask. Don't just assume that if you blunder on regardless, she'll change her mind.

Larry - there are not only two choices here. It's not 'ask permission to make any sort of physical contact' or 'risk of sexual assault'.

Most relationships begin naturally through a mutual compatibility, and then move on in a quite natural way, with each taking verbal and non-verbal cues from the other.

When you met your wife did you ask permission? Did you think the only alternative to this was to risk sexually assaulting her?

But Larry knows - he knows - we're not talking about the beginnings of relationships here.

We're talking about men like Rennard, abusing their power over subordinates ar work and sexually harassing them. And men on public transport and on the street harassing women and taking advantage of the fact they may not have the confidence to shout fuck off at them.

They know their behaviour is unwanted but they still do it.

If you're not comfortable asking "may I kiss you?" there's always the traditional "would you like to have dinner with me?" or the more modern "shall we go somewhere more private?"

Larry, I've only ever seen two women on MN say SAHM are letting the side down, and I'm not sure they both identify as feminists. I've seen hundreds of posters saying nothing of the sort.

You may be thinking of some other feminists though.

Ah but women don't know what they want, do they, these feeble-minded frail delicate creatures whose brains would short-circuit if they even try to think? It takes a more forceful (male) personality to tell them what they want. And that legal definition of assault! How over the top! Really! You are consigning these shy women to a lifetime of, er, not being assaulted and therefore not ever getting into relationships with real men!

Larry does battle on, doesn't he, Doctrine?

This thread is moving so fast, I've probably missed bits of it - but the reference to Animal Farm - wtaf?

So, posters on this thread just want men to stop sexually harassing us in the workplace, in public etc. But really - once women are holding the whips, we'll be happily abusing our new found power to make unwanted advances on those poor menz, will we?

Do me a favour