sexual advances - the big question

[BramshawHill]

BBC the big question is currently discussing whether sexual advances should be accepted as a part of life.

The first speaker has said it weakens men and women if women complain about it every time, and that it IS a part of life.

Anyone else watching? Thoughts?

First time posting, hello btw!

Oh, no, you're fine - I was just checking, I hate getting tone wrong on the net as it's so easy.

The whole petty rumour side of it is horrible, isn't it? Sorry to hear you fell foul of it. And of course you're angry - you bloody should be!

There was a blog post linked a while back on this thread, about how women/girls are conditioned in society. I found it really interesting, because it is true. I have never found an acceptable way of "dealing" with unwanted advances on a night out- apart from "I have a boyfriend, he's that guy there, he won't like it if you grab my arse/make sexual advances/touch me without my consent".

I find it really difficult to say no to men, even over a medium like text when they are asking for something I'm not willing to give, especially if I've given it to them before. I don't think men understand how hard it is when you've said no for the second or third time, or given a fairly polite no, which can be just about read as a maybe, so they persist.

The one time I got physical with a man (he started grinding against me with an errection in a night club with litterally no introduction and I slapped him to get him to back off) he punched me in the face. The bouncers were uninterested and fortunately after that he left me alone. I am 5'4'' and weight less than 9 stone, the majority of men (the majority of people!) are going to be physically stronger than me, so I don't like getting into situations where things might get physical.

The other thing that annoys me is the assumption that flirting/talking = consent. I have never left a club with a stranger, I very much doubt I ever will. I'm happy, sometimes, to add guys on facebook/give them my number. That's not equal to consent. Neither is going on a date or agreeing to meet up, and I hate how some men view it that way.

Interestingly, I have been in a situation where the roles were slightly reversed- a much less sexually experienced guy (although older), less into me than I was into him, and I tried to be very careful with regards to sex, and only had it if he instigated it and seemed to be giving "enthusiastic consent". I know, obviously, someone has to instigate but I wish some of my male partners had given it some consideration.

With regards to reporting, I have never experienced anything worth reporting, but a friend was sexually assulted (as in sexual act performed on her whilst unconcious then she woke up) by a boyfriend, neither the police, nor the university they both attended were interested!

I am sorry that Pan and Hully's argument was brought back up here. Bad form. :(

I met a woman a while ago, in her 50s, who told me she had never met anyone who had been raped, or anyone who knew anyone who had been raped. Some people are truly blind to everything that hasn't affected them directly.

"Women? Upset by a hand on the knee? When I imagine a hand on my knee it doesn't disturb me. It's just a touch. Big babies. They're making it up."

The thing is (I bring you this analysis fresh from the field, having experienced an insidious groping at a bar on Saturday from a man who laughed and made a joke of it when I physically removed his hands and arms from my body) - they often aren't "sexual advances" in the sense that the man wants you to say "Oh yes, what a good idea, let's go and have sex". So he is "in the clear" in the sense that he didn't want you anway! (he could loudly protest). No, maybe he didn't want to take you to a hotel, but he has already had what he wanted, which was to rub up against an unfamiliar female body and revel in the power of being able to do this and still regard himself as a nice person.

A sexual advance would be reasonable. they often look like this:
"do you want to go out with me?" (= person wants to have a relationship with you, or at least thinks he might)
"Do you want to come back to my hotel room?" (= person wants to have sex with you) (obviously if you do go back to the room you don't have to, but you might want to have sex too)

both of these are fine in that they both allow the space, formally at least, for "no thankyou".
And this is why the whole nasty gropey power thing is so horrible, is that they have just taken it, there is no space for rejection, the event is over and they got what they wanted, which is power, and the demonstration of power

So I don't think we should be talking about "sexual advances" because a sexual advance is a moment that the advancer is hoping to lead to further, consensual moments of sexual contact. This is just this - doesn't lead to anything - it's just a power grab

I agree curry. I would very much like to have an honest conversation with a "groper" and explore their thought processes.

One of my friends is really upset about a sexual assault that has just happened to her, by a stranger. She describes it as "low level" which I guess means "not actual rape". It happened so fast she barely had time to react.

Larry are you still there? Any words of advice for me and my friend? At what point should we have heartily bellowed "fuck off" and what actual fucking difference do you think it would have made?

I guess it is a crazy coincidence that we just happened to have been assaulted within hours of you explaining to us all that it doesn't happen very often and / or doesn't really matter (or whatever the fuck you were saying, as you don't want to clarify, just sort of generally minimise without coming out and being honest about your vile mealy mouthed position). How funny, such a once in a lifetime experience. OH NO IT IS NOT ONCE IN A LIFETIME IS IT

I am so fucking angry today I am sick to death of going about in the world with men treating me like a fucking toy. I am FORTY FUCKING ONE (not that it would be ok if I were 20)

Ha Ha prom you made me literally lol. I think you will find that everything you suggest is true, and that also, some women like having strange men's hands all over them at a bar, so it would actually be unsisterly of me to suggest that men not do this, because the effect would be that the CERTAINLY EQUALLY NUMEROUS IF NOT MORE NUMEROUS WOMEN WHO DEFINITELY LIKE IT, would be missing out.

Did it occur to anybody that this new "Fat girl rodeo" craze gives the victim a golden opportunity to kick the bastards in the nuts really hard?

The question is, why don't they? If everyone did, they'd soon stop. My guess is that their self-esteem will not permit it. Because these bastards on overweight women, they are also preying on their insecurities in a world that permits no deviation from perfect for women. There is so much wrong with this, it is so abusive on so many levels, that the blokes involved ought to suffer for doing it.

I wish men who groped and harassed women were usually kicked out of pubs and parties. That would be logical. They're insulting the other guest(s) and they ruin the mood, not the woman who complain about it. The guy started the negativity with his behaviour. Wouldn't it be in the interest of most fun social gatherings to have people who do not harass and physically assualt others?
It's not fun to go out if you're supposed to tolerate any sort of crap and have no one to complain to or support you is it?

erm sorry to be so terribly not with-it (adjusts lorgnette) but what is fat girl rodeo?

WTAF?!

I hadn't heard of that either.

How vile

It's fucking horrendous on so many levels. I would expect people "playing" it to be kicked out of any establishment but I bet they don't. It is sexual harassment, not just the harmless fun it's painted to be by some.

Erm, judging by the responses on that link, this was something dreamed up by some inadequate teenage boy and probably never actually done.

Mind you, I have found in the past that the one place you can be pretty sure a groper will be thrown out of is a BDSM club.

How ironic that as woman, you would have to go to a super special sexual beat each other club if you want to be safe from groping.

I agree SGB - at least I hope so!

I've been groped at a gig where there was a mosh pit. Everyone so close together that I couldn't even turn around to see who did it. Yuck. I've never been particularly traumatised by the incident but it bothers me a bit looking back - I was 16. I thought it was my fault for wearing a short skirt, and it put me off the mosh pit experience which was a shame because I actually really enjoy the whole experience of it, minus the groping part, and it's much cooler to wear skirts because it's like an oven in there.

This thread has gradually morphed from being about sexual advances to sexual assault. We then get the "I believe you" and "I'm so sorry" from one internet stranger to another. I guess if it comforts it serves a purpose but it is not really the discussion intended by the OP. I don't think you will find a single person on MN who will condone sexual assault. And if they do, they will be banned.

The original discussion was quite interesting.

Curryeater,

I have never been on a name thread although I do think it is petty being resentful about a computer generated address on an envelope. I am frequently (erroneously) referred to as Miss or Mrs on arbitrary junk mail. I really can't get too excited about a computer. If you want to call me Lazzer, fine, I don't mind at all, as long as I can call you Cuzzer or something similar.